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FW: Re : Our Original Position

From: Krishna Kalale (
Date: Fri Oct 29 1999 - 16:08:18 PDT

-----Original Message-----
From:	Krishna Kalale []
Sent:	Thursday, October 28, 1999 8:47 AM
To:	'HRID'
Subject:	RE: Re : Our Original Position

-----Original Message-----
From:	HRID []
Sent:	Thursday, October 07, 1999 9:33 AM
Cc:	'HRID'
Subject:	RE: Re : Our Original Position

Dear Krishna Prasada,
	Thank you for your letter. Here are my comments.

>I would like to know who are meant by "those who are comin down to the
>material world"?  whoever they may be, they are definitely not coming due
>to karma or even their choice.  It is purely because to serve sriKrishna 
>due to Sri Krishna's orders to be carried out in this world.

	Isn't this begging the question. You are simply affirming the
very point under debate.
[Krishna Kalale]

Dear Sri Hridayananda Goswami,

This is not begging the question.  There is no return from moksha in 
general.  In your book you have indicated letters from Srila Prabhupada or 
whatever is understood by the followers of Srila Prabhupada stating that : 
 in Moksha state a jiva has freedom to choose whether he wants to stay 
there with krishna or return.  Such an issue does not arise.  In moksha 
there is no ajnana or ignorance. hence such a choice will never result in 
one returning from Lord Krishna to this world.  Your long assessment of 
term "anadi" basically leaves the reader with the impression that all souls 
were with Krishna before and they slipped and fell down to this world due 
to some reason. This is not as per the shastras. souls were always bound in 
matter from beginningless time that means that from time negative infinity. 
 This is exactly what your book does not agree with.  Hence I wrote this 

Note:  A swamy from GBC discussed with me the issue of nitya muktas. 
 nityamuktas are the only souls who were always with krishna and they can 
come here only on some mission of service to the lord.  This concept of 
nityamuktas is accepted also by sri- vaishnava philosphy.  The set of 
nityamuktas are totally different from the rest of the souls.  The question 
of "fall from vaikunta" applies in this context not to nityamuktas but 
ordinary souls.

sri Hridayananda goswami wrote:

	I am somewhat bewildered by the long quote you gave from
Baladeva, since this point repeatedly states the same thing I have
stated: that the Lord creates the world with perfect regard to karma.
[Krishna Kalale]

The long quote I gave was since you requested that you could not evaluate 
the situation without that long quote, since you did not have that book 
(probably).   [Krishna Kalale]  Further,  the statements in the book "our 
original position" : page 26 :

" both statements argue the same point : although the soul appears to 
acquire or take on a spiritual form at the time of liberation, this form or 
constitutional position already existed previously in fullness "

This statement should not be understood that we were with Lord Krishna in 
the beginning and then we fell down to material bondage.  This only states 
that the svarupa of jiva is never affected in bondage but it retains it 
original state in moksha.  There is a subtle difference here.  this should 
be understood as : There was no time when this soul was not bound in the 
past, but when this soul attains moksa it retains it original svarupa.  but 
what has happened to its original svarupa now? it is just as it is in the 
original state but knowledge (dharma bhuta jnana) is contracted (ie. like a 
lamp contained in side a big pot, the luminosity is contracted by avidya / 
karma.  Once the pot is broken (avidya / karma destroyed) the lamp shines 
forth in its original luminosity which existed. in this analogy the lamp 
never was affected, only the coverings were affected during bondage and 
release.  That means that the original luminosity or in other words the 
nature of jiva which includes attributes such as : being eternally 
subservient to Lord Krishna, and to be a spiritual spark of Lord Krishna 
etc. remains the same eternally through the stages of rebirths and moksha). 
 Only when the pot is broken or when ajnana is destroyed the jiva becomes 
sarvajna or all knowing and understands his true position that he is always 
an eternal servant of the lord. "

Please note: that in a book it is not very appropriate to state " Sri 
chaitanya Mahaprabhu echoed the words of His devotee, Sripada 
Ramanujacharya, ....."  page-26.  Sri Ramanujacharya came 300 years earlier 
to this world than Sri chaitanya mahaprabhu.  Of course from the 
perspective of a chaitanya sampradaya follower, this statement is fine 
since Sri mahaprabhu is identical to Lord Krishna.  However, in a general 
book such statements raise questions in the reader's mind.  [Krishna 
Kalale]  In otherwords such statements can be made more truthfully to 

>There is no doubt
>that Sridharaswami's commentary is excellent,  However,  Sridharaswami is 
>staunch follower of Sri Sankara's advaita philosophy.

	Neither Vaishnavs, nor academic scholars, believe this. Lord
Caitanya took sannyas from a Mayavad sampradaya, but He is hardly a

[Krishna Kalale]

You may be mistaking what I said.  I never indicated that Sri Chaitanya 
belongs to advaita sampradaya.  All I said is that Sridharaswami belongs to 
advaita sampradaya clearly.  by the way my statement was taken straight out 
of the actual translation of Bhagavata purana's commentary - Bhavartha 
dipika of Sri Sridharaswamy.  It is well known among all vaishnavas and all 
scholars that Sridharaswami wrote an advaitic commentary to Bhagavata 
puranam.  In fact, when I asked the GBC swamy of ISKON he also expressed 
surprise that "strangely sri mahaprabhu has authorized that commentary but 
philosophically Sri chaitanya sampradaya is obviously different from 
mayavada philosophy".  This was quite known to me and I just expressed that 
same surprise in my earlier mail.

With best wishes,
Hridayananda das Goswami
[Krishna Kalale]
with best wishes
your servant,

Krishna kalale