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re; smallclarification-- Mani & Anand's discussion

From: sampath kumar (
Date: Fri Nov 12 1999 - 06:56:48 PST

To: SrimAn Mani varadarajan & Anand Karallapakkam

Please permit adiyen to interject in your interesting
dialogue regarding the following that you two wrote:

But, during the rAma avatAram, everyone at AyOdhya
> were taken to the vibhava lOkam called 
> SaantAnika lOkam (rAma lOkam), from where those 
> jIvAtmAs performed either bhakti Or Prapatti to
> attain moksham (ie. This is what meant by statements
> like "everyone at ayOdhya attained moksham" ; Here,
> the time frame is not specified; It implies the
"krama> mukti" <stage by stage mukti ?> and not direct
mukti to > Sri VaikunTHam). 

(Mani's reply:
I am sure you say this because some scholar has told
youthis, but frankly, such a conclusion strikes me as
being completely unwarranted and at variance with the
texts and early commentaries. Why posit an intervening
"loka"when none is mentioned? )

On this subject adiyen has following view which you
may please also consider:

When Bharatha went to Chitrakootam to persuade Rama to
return to the Kingdom we know that all of Ayodhya went
along with him... courtiers, nobles, priests,
brahmins, sages, Vasishta, merchants, philosophers,
traders, farmers, the commonweal...

>From the general drift of Valmiki's story we also
easily gather that such a great entourage from Saketa
rallied behind Bharatha in the march to the forest in
the clear hope that the younger brother would succeed
in his mission. All of Ayodhya that day wanted to lend
full support, both physical and moral, to Bharatha in
his efforts to make Rama change his mind and return to
the throne of Ayodhya. Bharatha in fact had hoped that
it would be possible to perform the coronation of Rama
at Chitrakoota itself rather than return all the way
to Ayodhya-palace to complete the anointing of
SriRamachandra as King.

"sa kaTham pAla-ishyAmi Bhoomim bhavati tish-ta-thi
bhavatA cha vinAbhootO na vartayitu-mutsahE I

ihaiva tvAbhishinchantu sarvA: prakrutayaha saha
kritvijaha savishtAshcha mantravanmantra-kOvidAh: II"
(Srimad Valmiki Ramayanam II 106.24-27)

Bharatha tells Rama, "I have brought everything from
the capital of Ayodhya. I have brought all the women
of the land (in Tamil, "thai-kulam"!). I have brought
all the gurus. Vasishta is here. I have brought all
the 'samagris' necessary for your 'abisheka'. The army
is here. The minstrels are here.. musical instruments
are here...all things are here.. All priests are here.
The men who know the Vedas from one end to the other
are here. Who else do you want? It is my intention to
have you crowned here. Take it. Let me anoint you king
here and now!".

So from the above passages of the Ramayana it is clear
that virtually "everything in Saketa" was present
there at Chitrakoota when Bharatha performed his
"saranAgathi" to Lord Rama and consecrated the
"paduka", the Lord's sandals. 

All of Saketa, Bharatha's subjects, also witnessed him
perform "nyAsa" to Lord Rama.

"eta-drAjyam mama bhrAtrA datham san-nyAsa-vatsvayam
yOgakshEmavahE tasya pAdukE hEmabhushitE I"

"Rama is still King", Bharatha tells the assembled
citizenry of Ayodhya there, "He has only deposited the
kingdom and all of you to me in trust. I am only a
trustee.The ownership is all with Him only! The
"paduka" I am carrying, they are actually King!"

Bharatha used the word "nyAsA" and it is clear that he
wanted his entourage to know that not only had he
surrendered himself to Rama but in the very act he had
also surrendered all of them too! In other words,
Bharatha had performed "nyAsa" for all of Saketa!

>From the above, it is therefore very clear, that when
the time came for the conclusion of Rama avatara, it
was only but natural that all of Saketa too became
eligible for passage with Rama to "parama-padam"
solely on the strenth of the "nyasa" that had been
performed on their behalf by Bharata.

Sir, what are you two learned bhAgavatas thinking
about the above view? Is it credible? (It is not my
view but what adiyen learnt from another learned



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