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re: chaitanya sampradaya

From: Krishna Kalale (kkalale_at_qualcomm.com)
Date: Thu May 09 1996 - 16:33:25 PDT

Jagannathan writes:

At 09:42 AM 5/9/96 ET, you wrote:
>I do not agree that what the Gaudiya Vaishnavas practice is Bhakti
>Yoga as explained by Ramanujacharya and Vedanta Desikar.  For that
>Bhakti Yoga one has to be qulified firstly by being born in 3 castes.
> Gaudiya Vaishnava tradition is open to anyone and everyone.  The
>only method that is available to everyone is Prapatti.

This is true. As per Ramanuja and Vedanta desika - bhaktiyoga is incomplete
without agnihotra type of karmas.


>For a full explanation of their system of Prapatti one has to study
>Bhakti Vinoda Thakur's works. 
I dont have this work. Please quote appropriate portions of this work. I am
interested.

 What is unique to Sri Sampradaya is
>Ukti nishtha and Acharya nishtha Prapatti.  Since this prapatti is
>done for us by learned Acharyas, we get moksham in one lifetime.  In
>all other cases, it is the chanting of Sriman Narayana's names that
>leads to sva-nishtha prapatti or bhagavata nishtha prapatti that
>obtains rememberence of Sriman Narayana at the end of one's life.

Note: svanishta prapatti is different from and not necessarily the goal
particularly in one lifetime which occurs due to utterance of Sriman
Narayana's names.
what is this bhagavata nishta prapatti? this term is confusing.


>Prapatti is finally said to be performed when one gives up the burden
>of attaining Narayana to Narayana.  In our sampradayam there is a
>prayer specifying the time at which one attains moksha.  

I would like to know what prayer are you refering to? if " a rahasya" please
send me a private email.

In the case
>of the Gaudiya Vaishnava, if the individual does not do this, then
>all prarabdha karma at the time of prapatti will have to be fulfilled
>which could drag on beyond one lifetime.
>

>According to the 44th Jeer's lecture given in Venkat's house, merely
>chanting Krishna Krishna all the time will itself lead to
>Sharanagathi.

Yes, as per visistadvaita, we cannot conclude that nama-samkirtanam is
enough and prapatti is not needed since it will follow anyway!. To be honest
with you I can show you references from samhitas, puranas which state :
even punya stala visits are enough to lead to moksha.  and in 4th chapter of
bhagawadgita it is said. " one who knows the theory of incarnation in real
essence will go to moksha in one lifetime " - janma karma cha me divyam evam
yo vetti tatvataha - tyakva deham purarnjanma naiti maam eti so arjuna".
This means that all one needs to know is this to get moksha in one life.
(This view is not chosen as the easy and short path in rahasya traya sara)
please look into rahasyatrayasara in detail and evaluate the relative merits
of namasamkirtana etc.  I have nothing against "chaitanya sampradaya".  Here
in sandiego I visit hare krishna temple often. I would like to ask you a
plain question - "Even in Bhagawadgita, THE authority on Jnana yoga, karma
yoga and bhaktiyoga - nama samkirtana is not mentioned as a direct path.
manmana bhava madbhaktaha madyaaji is mentioned. but this can be only taken
in the bhakti yoga way since yaaji is mentioned. ie. nitya naimittika karmas
are to be included. bhaktiyoga is not simplified to namasamkirtana in any
work including srimadbhagavatam. In srimadbhagavatham can you show
namasamkirthana as a path to moksha (excluding its reference to bhaktiyoga)?.

  My sincere request is please draw the lines between these systems as per
the works of our purvacharyas and acharyas of chaitanya sampradaya. there is
a marked difference. Please do not misunderstand 44th jeer's lecture. Unless
you do kalakshepa regarding this and "question again and again" it will not
be clear.

Accepting all this as per the scriptures,  I am still at awe with the
simplicity, steadiness of approach and "Krishna-Centredness" of Hare Krishna
people. 



>The goal of Gaudiya Sampradaya which is unalloyed devotion to Krishna
>is common with our goal of Moksha.  The higher levels of bhakti as
>fruits of prapatti is also common to the two sampradayas.  What is
>different is methods of worship and chanting of mantras.  In our case
>the time of attainment of moksha is fixed by our acharya while in
>their case it depends upon the individual's sincerity.

this is not true!  prapatti in srivaishnavism is only a vyaja. No one but
God can fix the time of attainment of Moksha.  Even that a prapanna cannot
take it for granted even though it is true.  we should not have "upaya
buddhi" in prapatti.  ie. " I have done it so .... why dont you give moksha
tome ...?? " - this attitude is a big no no.  

Note: by doing prapatti it is giving the full freedom of "what to do with
us" to him eventhough we ask moksha at the end of this life.

I should add, this conversation is better done face to face and with a
learned GURU like SMS chari and Anantha rangachar.


Krishna Kalale