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Re: Consciousness in the state of moksha

From: M.S.HARI Madabhushi Sarangarajan Hari (mshari_at_usa.net)
Date: Tue Mar 27 2001 - 09:25:52 PST

Dear SrI MaNi VaradarAjan, SrI P.T. Srinivasan & SrI T.G. Ramkumar,

The discussions regarding the muktha-jeevan's state with specific
references to his rememberance of his past puNya-pApa rUpa karma
etc are interesting. 

I had written a detailed article on this subject but it is not
published in the bhakti-list because of its volume. The same article
can be read by clicking the following link:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Nigama-ParimaLam/message/1

I briefly comment on the remarks of SrI P.T. Srinivasa and that of
SrI T.G. Ramkumar which are quoted by our SrI MaNi Varadarajan.

> Sri P.T. Srinivasan writes:
>  The jiva does not remember anything about its past
>  since the property of remeberance is attributed to
>  perception by sense organs....  

This point can be considered correct if authentic pramANams are 
quoted substantiating the point. The author has to substantiate
two points :
1. property of rememberance is attributed only to preception by senses
after defining property of rememberance. 
2. "nishEdam" of rememberance about past by muktha jeevan.

>  Mukti, in the correct sense of
>  the term, is that state of the individual self in
>  which it is totally dissociated from the vital breath,
>  sense organs and physical body. 

Please refer nyAya sidhdAnjanam quote in my article referenced in the
link mentioned above for definition of mukti as per VedAntha sAstra.

> so the question of   rememberance of the previous births etc 
> is ruled out.

As the reasoning is questioned, the question of rememberance of
previous births cannot be ruled out unless reasoning is done
again (only pramANAnuguNa-tarkam is meant here).

>  An individual soul connected with prana, indriyas and
>  physical body is its embodied state (jivana).  The
>  two states - disembodied and embodied - are mutually
>  opposed to each other.  one who is embodied cannot
>  therefore be mukta or disembodied.  Therefore the
>  theory of rememberance of the past life is the state
>  of moksa is unsound.

I have a question for Sri P.T. Srinivasan, which is as follows:
If we accept the above words, then during the so-called "embodied
stated (jivana)", does the individual soul is remembering all (entire) 
his past karma? If the answer is yes, then it is against anubhavam.
If no, then the author's words contradict itself.

I request Sri P.T. Srinivasan to consider again his points before 
he could conclude the theory as "unsound".

P.S. If it is a personal opinion, then no comments.

> Sri T.G. Ramkumar has asked questions along similar lines
> and has succinctly and appropriately phrased the problematic 
> issues at hand:

>  Here is my technical thoughts/questions on the subject -

> My understanding is pUrva-prAkRta-SarIram of the muktA was due to 
> karma   ( == bhagavan-nigraha-sankalpam which in turn is merely a 
> prior state [avatha]
> of permumAL's dharma-bhUta-gyAnam (= an ajaDa-achEtanam? ) )

>  So the question boils down to  - 
>  "Is the past bhagavan-nigraha/anugraha-sankalpam accessible to the 
>  mukta?"   
 
>  Does the dharma-bhUta-jnAnam  associated with the chEtanam,
>  keep a trail of all its historical state changes ?

It is not "keep a trail of all its historical state changes".
The mukta is "sarvagnya:" and this "sarvagnyathvam" is having
sAmyam with the Lord's "sarvagnyathvam". Therefore, there is 
nothing which cannot be known to the muktha jeevan.

(bhoga-mAtra sAmyalinga..., jagath-vyApAra varjam...)
 
> (For instance, if an acEtanam like ghaTam (kAryam) breaks, 
> mRt-piNDam (the kAraNam) enters a new state, "broken-pieces" and the 
> prior state, gaTam no longer exists.
> Does an observing jIva (chEtanam) record these state-changes in its 
> dharma-bhUta-jnAnam?

Example is not exactly parallel to the discussion; therefore ignored.
But the thought behind this example is considered.
When the jeevan is in his baddha-daSa, his dharma-bhUtha-jgnyAnam (dbj)
is not shining in its full form because of avidyA which is his own
karma. Due to this contraction in the dharma-bhUtha-jgnyAna, the 
badhda jeeva is not able to comprehend his full anAdhi-karma.
Only on he attaining mukti, his dbj becomes full in its orignal
form. In other words, the badhda jeeva is like a ratnam covered
by mud. 

> What is the mechanics of memory access (smRti) during 
> baddha-daSa   in terms of the tattva-trayam ?  

I think SrI T.G. Ramkumar is comparing RAM/ROM etc of computer
terminologies. I enjoy the words of SrI T.G. Ramkumar. But,
the "mechanics" is nothing but muktha-jeevan's sarvagnyathvam
which makes him to know simply everything and anything ie.,
his dbj is in its fully expanded (infinite) form in mukti.
 
> Is it stored in the indriya-s but accessed thru 
> dharma-bhUta-jnAnam by the jIvAtmA?

No.

> If it is stored in sUkshmEndriya (like the manas) would it not be 
> lost in the virajA before the jIva reaches SrI-vaikuNTham? 

Question answered.
 
> If so, none of the pUrva-puNya-pApa-rUpa-karma will be remembered 
> after mukti ?

Question answered.

I appreciate SrI T.G. Ramkumar very much. 

Thanks & Regards
M.S.Hari rAmAnuja dAsan (mshari@usa.net)


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