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Re: Sri GuNa Rathna Kosam --> Part XXVI:SlOkam 17, Re: Consciousness in the state of moksha

From: K. Sadananda (
Date: Fri Mar 16 2001 - 05:04:00 PST

First my praNaam-s to everyone.

If I am aloud  to ask  some questions to the learned members of the 
list related to nature of moksha, Lakshmi, in VishishhTaadviatic 
tradition. These are for my own clear understanding of the darshaNam 
since I do not know.   I posted one yesterday but it did not go 
through since by mistake put  bhakti-list unsubscirbe  in the To: 
block - sign of getting old!  I appreciate answers with shruti and/or 
smR^iti pramaaNa-s if possible.
Question about Shree Maha Lakshmi - the post that bounced back before:
>She was born along with nectar during the churning
>for Amrutham from the milky ocean. Hence , She is
>addressed as "SudhA Sakhi". Her great affection for
>those , who seek Her is hinted by Her Name "Rathi"
>SrimathE RanganAyaki jayathu
>Daasan , Oppiliappan Koil VaradAchAri SatakOpan

Enjoying the beautiful description of Shree Maha Lakshmi.

1. My question is related to the birth of Shree Mahaa Lakshmi - How 
is her birth accounted?  Was she not there before ksheerasaaraga 
mathanam?  Or is there some philosophical significance for this 
birth. - As I understand Shree is always there with NaaraayaNa. 
Purusha suuktam says:- hRiishchate lakshmiishcha patnyau - aho raatre 
paarshve -implies that she is there with Him all the time - This 
birth implies  as if she was not there before the mathanam took 
place. Any explanation and pramaaNa-s for her existence before the 
ksheerasaaraga mathanam  and if so why she took  birth again. -On the 
other hand,  - jaatasya hi dhruvo mR^ituH says Giita - Does she also 
undergo cycles of birth-and-death if she is born - or does this 
statement applies to only leela vibhuuti. What is the explanation of 
her birth during the mathanam?

2. About creation -As I understand (a)  jagat and jiiva-s are satyams 
-(b) It is cyclic process and not linear process.  I assume then that 
the creation is the grossification  from subtle states.  I am aware 
of Bhagavaan Ramanuja's criticism of avidya of adviata doctrine.  Is 
not avidya the cause for the bondage of the jiiva in 
VishishhTaadvaitic tradition too - my understanding as of now is that 
jiiva-s do not realize his aswatantra nature due to avidya - am I 
right?  And this avidya is also anaadi? Hence there is no beginning 
for the bondage but only end.  Please correct me if I am wrong. How 
did jiiva-s get into that state of avidya - if avidya is not their 
intrinsic nature. - I understand the anaadi aspect of avidya - but 
why they have- that is my question?   

3. Next related to Consciousness in moksha: I understand Bhagavaan 
Ramanuja considers consciousness is  as an attribute of jiiva not 
swaruupa lakshaNa of jiiva - am I right?  In moksha, what exactly is 
the nature of jiiva?  I know he is tiny at least that is what I 
gather for the interpretation of the word suukshhmam implies. And I 
also realize he is a conscious entity - but if it is his attribute, 
my question is related to the locus of that attribute.

Actually this may have deeper question that has been bothering me -I 
am trying to understand the attributes of an object and the locus of 
these attributes.  I realize Bhagavaan Raamaanuja and Shree Vedanta 
Deshika discuss the relation between the attributes and objects in 
terms of samavaayu of taarkika-s.  What exactly an object then -sans 
attributes or what is its intrinsic nature - or can we ever know an 
object - If I say I see a pencil there - what exactly is the pencil - 
I can describe its attributes and say  pencil is there - but 
attributes are not the pencil since it is the locus for the 
attributes - Is pencil only an inference in the mind since one cannot 
have a pencil without its attributes or does the pencil really exists 
and on what basis would I know without the mental inferences 
involved.  I know jagat is satyam - since jagat is assemblage of all 
objects - essentially it boils down to does an object exists without 
mind inferring its existence - how can we know that without bringing 
mental inferences into picture since only attributes are recognized 
by the senses?

I am applying the same logic to jiiva as an object what exactly its 
intrinsic nature and how is it recognized from one to the other.  I 
gather jiiva is given a divya shariira in the moksha - is it not? 
without that shariira he cannot operate?   I am all puzzled about all 
these concepts. 

4. Is there a hierarchy in the jiiva-s in moksha - that is one 
superior and one inferior etc.  Like Maha Lakshmi is superior to 
Brahma, Sanatkumaara-s, Narada and other deities and then jiiva-s 
etc.  On what basis this hierarchy is set or is it intrinsic to 
jiiva-s in terms of their nature (here again I am coming back to 
previous question in essence) .  This aspect is unclear to me.  I 
know in dwaita it is - they give an example of small pot and a big 
pot - the pot size is intrinsic to jiiva - why it is so is not clear 
to me either other than it is so-In moksha  each pot is full with 
aananda but one is bigger pot compared to the other etc.  Is it 
similar what exactly the nature of jiiva swaruupam - I think that is 
my central question. I understand shesha-seshii bhaava but what 
exactly does he do in moksha - What does service of the Lord in 
Moksha exactly mean? I realize that Lord does not need our service, 
then exactly what does service really imply? Why does one want to 
serve or is it again the intrinsic nature of the jiiva - to serve.  I 
would like to be clear on these concepts.

5. When ones goes to VaikunTa there is no return back, is it not? 
yadgatvaa na nivartante tat dhaama paramam mama - says Giita.  Then I 
hear about the story of Jaya and Vijaya who were guards  at the 
vaikunTa.  Their behavior towards Sanatkumaara-s indicates that they 
are subjected to rajo guNa even in VaikunTa - and they were cursed to 
return back to the earth.  How do we account the triguNa-s even in 
Divyavibhuuti - and that jiiva-s are still under their influence.  If 
jaya and vijaya can return back then other jiiva-s can too.  But that 
violates B.G. statement. Any clarification?

I hope I am not offending the list members with my inquisitive 
questions. I want to be clear about my understanding of 
vishishhTaadviata principles. 

With Pranaam-s

Hari Om!

K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice (202)767-2117

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           - SrImate rAmAnujAya namaH -
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