You are here: Sri Vaishnava Home Page : Bhakti List : Archives : June 2001

Re: God's Grace

From: K. Sadananda (sada_at_anvil.nrl.navy.mil)
Date: Tue Jun 19 2001 - 05:28:10 PDT

Manni Varadarajan wrote:

>
>It does not mean arbitrary or capricious. Which means
>that if the Lord has chosen Arjuna, or Yashoda, it must
>have been due to some reason -- even if the Lord himself
>has concocted some pretext out of His own grace unbeknownst
>to the individual upon whom He is bestowing His favor
(cf. Sri Vachana Bhushana s.386 and Daya Satakam v.74).

..x snipx  ........................

>Sri Sadananda writes, on an another note:
>>  I have another problem in grading the souls in vaikunTa in terms of
>>  superiority and inferiority of the souls.
>
>Such a gradation does not exist in Visishtadvaita Vedanta.
>All souls which have attained the Lord are fundamentally equal
>and enjoy the same infinite bliss in Vaikuntha.  You may be
>thinking of the Dvaita school where intrinsic differences are
>proposed -- and you are right, this makes it better than samsAra
>only in name.
>
>aDiyEn rAmAnuja dAsan,
>Mani

Thanks Mani for educating me.

Once we accept (a) God by definition cannot be partial and (2) Lord 
has chosen or chooses an individual soul not randomly but for some 
reason  and (c) there is no intrinsic differences between soul to 
soul in VaikunTa -and (d)  He has no self-motivating (or desire 
prompted) cause to do anything including the Leela,  then, as I see 
it, we are faced with problems to justify the basis of the selection 
of X over Y etc. The possible alternatives are:

1. Souls are selected not from VaikunTa but from the ones who have 
not reached moksha yet - which means that they still have not reached 
the final goal, hence distinctions due to upaadhi-s based on karma 
samskaara remain with them. Hence some are suitable and some are not 
suitable for a given task - The selection then depends on the 
samskaara of the individual souls rather than the Lord's choice per 
sec.  In other words Lord provides an environment for evolution of 
that soul by giving him an opportunity to serve in the upliftment of 
the society.  Thus Grace is earned rather than given randomly.

2. His reasons are incomprehensible for our limited intellect - This 
is alternate way of saying either it is anirvachaniiyam ( sounds like 
an advaitin!) but only means it is inexplainable by intellect, which 
is limited by definition; or it is his Leela and who are we to 
question that - but that sounds authoritative.  Both are only a 
sugar-coated explanations without explaining anything but asking us 
to accept as it stands.

In terms of distinction between the souls in the moksha - Yes the 
jiiva-jiiva bhinnatvam is accepted in Madhva tradition.  That leaves 
tara tama bheda-s between the jiiva-s - and as I understand  they do 
not provide a justification or basis for the intrinsic differences 
between  jiiva-s - other than it is so.  I am not sure if there are 
any scriptural pamaaNa for that.

Since bahujiivatvam is accepted in vishishhTa advaita tradition, if 
jiiva-jiiva bhinnatvam is not there intrinsically, yet each one is 
anu pramaanaat - I am facing some difficulties
(1)  The implication is one jiiva cannot distinguish another jiiva in 
moksha since sajaati, vijaati and swagata bedha-s are not there.
(2) Can jiiva-s distinguish paramaatma? - I understand the anantatvam 
of the Lord in all aspects and parimita aspect of jiiva - the 
question is more in terms of through what instruments jiiva 
distinguishes paramaatma without the upaadhi-s needed to distinguish.
(3) Upaadhi-s are not there - (am I right?) - since if upaadhi-s are 
there we run into problem of accounting on what basis a particular 
type of upaadhi is given - since in moksha all the karma janita 
samskaara-s are dissolved (if they are not then we are back to the 
same limitations as in this leela vibhuuti - since there is tara tama 
bheda-s in karma and hence karam phala).
(4) - anupramaanat - does that imply a boundary in some form - where 
one jiiva ends and another jiiva starts - if upaadhi-s are not there 
to provide a distinguishinig boudaries between jiiva and jiiva. how 
the boundaries are recognized  Does jiiva knows he is anupramaanaat - 
if he does on what basis?

(5)- Enjoyment of infinite bliss by finite anu pramaana jiiva - I am 
not sure what infinity means here- eternal sound right at least time 
wise. Can jiiva enjoy the bliss without having instruments or 
upaadhi-s for enjoying? - Is bliss swaruupa lakshaNa of jiiva or 
Brahman or neither.  Question enjoyment of bliss itself is a problem 
for me - is bliss an object of enjoyment or bliss comes from an 
enjoyment of an object - Infinite enjoyment from a finite object 
cannot be there - Infinite enjoyment from an infinite object can be 
there - One can say that Lord himself is an infinite bliss since He 
is infinite.  But being anu pramaanaat how am I going to enjoy 
infinite bliss being tiny. Am I getting mixed up here?

Or my concepts are all wrong?

For some reason having upaadhi-s does not sound logical to my mind 
since it takes us back for some kaaraNa justifying a particular 
upaadhi different from other.  On the other hand not having upaadhi-s 
would result indistinguishable features as well as the lack of 
instruments of knowledge.

I need to resolve these in my own mind in self-consistent manner to 
have a clear understanding of the concepts involved - I also 
understand that some of these questions arise because of my prior 
conditioning - as I have it, I do not consider it as a burdon!

Too many questions - If you are guessing right, I am focusing my 
ignorance to prepare myself when Shreeman Dr. S.M.S. Chari's visit 
here.

If you are going to be in Washington area around that time (July 
16-21) give us a call.  We will find you a place for you to enjoy the 
Sat Sangh. - He will be in N.J. too after that week and one can take 
advantage of his presence there.

Hari Om!
Sadananda






-- 
K. Sadananda
Code 6323
Naval Research Laboratory
Washington D.C. 20375
Voice (202)767-2117
Fax:(202)767-2623



--------------------------------------------------------------
           - SrImate rAmAnujAya namaH -
To Post a message, send it to:   bhakti-list@yahoogroups.com
Archives: http://ramanuja.org/sv/bhakti/archives/
 

Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/