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Fwd: Re: QUIZ REGARDING : SrI acyuta Satakam - Part 4.

From: Narasimhan Krishnamachari (
Date: Thu Jul 15 1999 - 17:08:25 PDT

Dear Friends:

There are two sets of questions (one set by SrI KalAlE and the other by
SrI Ve'nkaTssh ELayavalli), that have been posed as a result of my
feeble attempt to present the thoughts that I pretended to have
understood about  upAdAna and nimitta kAraNa-s, about prakRti and jIva,
etc. from svAmi deSikan's devine work.  Since SrI Ve'nkaTesh's
questions were not distributed in the bhakti mail, I am including them
here so that others can ponder over this philosophical discussion as

I only would like to share my ignorance here in public:  When the
statement is made that bhagavAn is both the Creator and the Created,
there are two ways of interpreting this statement.  One is that of
identity and the other that the Created exists and functions only
because of the Will of the Creator, and the two are different in the
sense of Sesha-Seshitvam relationship.  Therefore the antaryAmi in the
created is being implied by the statement that the created is nothing
but the Creator, i.e., the created is non-existent except for the Will
of the Creator, and this is what is meant by the statement that they
are the same.  I believe this is the difference between some of the
views.  I am not aware of the specifics of the two view points that SrI
KaLAle has given and I am fully aware that what I have put forth is
half-baked knowledge that I have boldly ventured in public, and I am
looking forward to the authentic interpretations of our AcArya-s that I
am sure the learned members will share with us.

Regarding SrI Elayavalli's question, my simple mind is able to see the
two statements as related.  The first statement to me seems to say that
bhagavAn is the upAdAna kAraNa (i.e., in the absence of Him nothing
exists), and the second seems to say that He is nimitta kAraNa (i.e.,
without Him nothing functions).

I am blessed with absolute ignorance which I have in abundance, and so
I am blind enough not to be able to see the subtle difference between
these different points. I look forward to the real answers to these
beatiful questions that the learned members have posed for our benefit.

om namo nArAyaNAya
dAsan kRshNamAcAryan

  [Krishna Kalale]  The quiz is as follows:

IF God is both the nimitta and upadana karana He is both the pot and
potter.   He is the created and the created!!  If so He himself becomes

this universe after creation.

a)  If so how is it different from the school of bhaskara
b) how is it different from the school of Yadavaprakasa which also
bhedabhedavada ?
c) what is the difference between advaita and visistadvaita regarding
"abhinna nimittopadana karanatva"( or the aspect that HE is both the 
created and the creator?)

Please note that this is just to create interest in the readers.  THis
not to show off that adiyen knows the answer.  Adiyen only knows how to
questions  stupid or reasonable!
 adiyen Krishna
[Krishna Kalale]

Note: forwarded message attached.

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attached mail follows:

Dear Sri Krishnamachari Uncle,Sri Krishna Kalale and Sri Mani

>Because He is both the prakRti and the jIva from which everything is
>created, He is the material cause of this Universe - upAdAna kAraNa;
>because He is the Creator of everything, He is also the instrumental
>cause of everything - nimitta kAraNa.

What is the diff between the statements
"you are both the prakRti and the Jiva"
"you have both prakRti and Jiva as your body"

The latter is in one of the translations forthe specific

It appears to me that there is a significant diff between
the two statements. The latter statement seems to follow
Alavandar/Ramanuja's theory. Can one of you please clarify.



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