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Re: More on Svargam and Naragam

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jasn sn • July 9, 2002 


SRIMATHE RAMANUJAYA NAMAHA.


A note for whomever following these posts,
THE ORIGINAL  DISCUSSION ON THIS TOPIC WAS MAINLY
AROUND HOW OR WHY THERE CAN BE ¡¦RESIDUAL KARMA¡¦.
 DOES NOT THE EXHAUSTION OF PUNYAM IN SVARGAM LEAD TO
A CONDITION OF '¡¦ZERO BALANCE¡¦ OF KARMAS? 
These have been  dealt with in earlier posts.
In the process it became  irresistable to ask the
question whether a place called heaven or hell  
exists at all.
It must also be said that
 for a perfect yogin, (BG)
for a brahma-upaasakan, (Taii Upa-II ¡V9)
for a prapannan,
 the ¡¥fear¡¦ or
possibility of reaching these places do not arise.

Now coming to Sri Lakshmi narasimhan¡¦s mail¡K
Dear Sri Lakshmi Narasimhan,
Glad to have received this mail from you.

You said,

> > My question is regarding the part "what punyam 
> A soul(athman) goes to svargam only if she(I call
> the athman with 
> feminine gender as I had studied from few learned
> people that only 
> the paramathman is the purusha(the MALE) and all
> other ones are 
> FEMALE (though differentiated only by bodies)) has
> punyams to her 
> credit. I.E only if she doesn't have papas or the
> papas that she has 
> in credit has been nullified by an equal amount of
> punyas and the 
> excess punyas lead to svargam. So, when they are in
> svargam there 
> excess punyams are also gone and they are given a
> re-birth in order 
> to be given an oppurtunity to get to know about the
> lord. But whether 
> the athman does punya or papa in the re-birth is a
> different story.

My response to this is

Nowhere it is said in the texts, according to my
limited knowledge,that paapam can be nullified by an
equal amount of punyam.
These two are treated separately only.
In the case of paapam, some pariharas and
praayasciththams are recommended. Parashara smirithi
which is said to be appllicable to this kaliyuga,
(Manusmrithi for Krutha yuga) tells a number of
pariharas and praayaschiththams to various kinds of
paapam. Certain henious crimes have also been
earmarked as 'gone' cases, where the dosham is said to
be twice the measure of Brahmahaththi dosham, for
which the person has to necessarily undergo the
recurcussions in its entirity. No escape.

 (Kindly go through Sri Sadagopan¡¦s mail in response
to my first mail on this issue in which he has brought
out these views as being found in Vishnu Purana,
written by Sri Parashara. I don¡¦t know for sure
whether the Parashara smrithi I am refering here is
part of Vishnu Purana. The book I am referring to is a
translated version by Sri Desikachar, published by Sri
Aadhi shakara bhagavad pada veda sabha, 1979 edition.)

Why I say all this is that the results of paapam have
to be endured and  the same holds good for punyams
also. According to BG  6 -41 & 42, even a
'yogabrahshtan' ( the one who has slipped from yogam)
after enjoying the logam of Punyaathmas (svarg?)  is
born in a good family.
The paapa-punya balance seems to be a mixed bag for a
majority. Like rain after sunshine and vice versa.
No one is a perfect Punyaathma and no one is a perfect
paapaathma. In the case of paapams, the motives and
circumstances are also taken into consideartion.
Parashara smrithi vindicates this view, so also does
the the dialogue between Bheeshma and Yudhishtra,
after Bheeshma was hit in the war (Anushasana Parvam
13, Adhyaay 8, of Mahabharatha specifically addresses
the question of purva janma karma and the
interpretation of Dharma in that context).

Coming to the core issue that is troubling us, 
the results of the  punya karmam can be any of the
following depending on the nature of the punya karmam.
These, according to Taiittriya Upanishad, are
1.prajaya - good children
2. pashubhihi - riches like cattle, in todays context
material comforts.
3.brahmavarchas - brahma tejas
4. annam - good food
5. svargena - svargam
(Taii upa - I-3.4)
The upanishad's recommendation for the  punya karma to
attain the above is the single minded upasana of
'mahasamhitha' of the 5-fold knowledge of and  the
requisite action with reference to Adhi lokam, Adhi
Jyothisham,  Adhi Vidhyam, Adhi Prajam and
Adhyaathmam.

The karma that are resposible for various kinds of
results mentioned above are different from each other.
For example, actions like digging well for the benefit
of people, performing yagas as per the three vedas etc
qualify the person to reach svargam, provided they are
capable of giving perfect punyams, not hindered by
that kind of paapam that will not qualify him to go to
svargam. That is why once after the enjoyment of the
punyam in svargam, the jiva comes back to earth with
the ¡¥residual karma¡¦

But talking about paapa karma, the texts seem to say 
that those who have done paapa karma  only and the
most henious ones at that are born as trees, animals
and birds.
 The kinds  of experiences that the jiva is said to
undergo in hell are all akin to what they experience
on this world. The diseases, the accidents, natural
calamities and man- made sufferings (who can forget
the sufferings of different magnitude that must have
come into fruition  to different people on the day WTC
was brought down?) The description of these sufferings
tally with whatever you find in the explanation for
hell.

> Also, in mahabharatham, at the end of their era the
> pandavas go to 
> heaven and before they go to heaven dharmaputra is
> shown a glimpse of 
> what hell is just because he had attempted/helped to
> lie(aswatthama 
> hatha kuncharaha). This is in Shri Vyasa's
> mahabharatha which means 
> the swargam and naragam definitely exist outside the
> karma bhoomi. 
> Isn't it? My point is not to scare anyone with the
> concept of hell 
> and heaven, but if I can make them see the heaven
> and the hell in the 
> right perspective that would be sufficient. Nobody
> gets scared when 
> they are told they would be severely punished if
> they violate some 
> law or say they will have life imprisonment in a
> jail. Well, few 
> people get scared, but, the point is, most of them
> make it a point 
> that they don't violate. That is all our religion is
> trying to tell 
> isn't it? It doesn't try to scare them but tells
> them that if they do 
> something wrong they deserve an equal punishment and
> they could 
> escape this material world, but not in the spiritual
„« world. 

I agree with you.  I used to wonder that even the very
purpose of  advent (or invention?) of religions is to
dictate some character and discipline in people¡¦s
lives.
But swearing on sv-precepts, we try to piece together
the views from different sources to get a better
perspective. (but land up in confused state as some
people have predicted!!)
„« 
„« I don't 
> know whether I am able to communicate what I want
> to, but let me try 
> some example. If I do some mistake or say a typical
> crime I could 
> always escape from being punished physically in this
> material world 
> as all the typical laws have some loop-hole or
> other, while, I can 
„« never escape from the hell is the point;-) 

Exactly.
This is the level of understanding where I stand now.
But I differ on the point of experience of  the
results of the crime in a separate abode called hell.
Why I say so?
I try to relate the real life experiences that I come
across in palm reading (related with astrology and
nadi- astrology which I have been doing, out of pure 
academic interest and to help people by guiding,
directing and counselling  them.)
>From this experience of more than two decades, I am
able to form certain notions based on repetition of
occurrence and verification
They are
 # for every action- however small it may be- done at
the level of thought or action or speech, there is a 
proportionate  and  appropriate result accruing in the
balance sheet. The crimes done in secrecy which may
never be made known  to the outside world are all
being tackled in this hard and fast rule of  cause and
effect. Recall the BG sloka that the lord procliams
himself as the Yama among those who control.(samya
madam)  He never uses the word among those who punishe
etc. It is samya madam, because the results are
inescapable (of course not for the prapannan etc. but
where do we find one?) and are meted out with
precision.

#  Only certain occurrences can be molified (as per
certain indications in the palm) by praayaschiththam
to minimise the effect of the result.

#  The so-called worst crimes ( I don¡¦t want to go
into the details, for then I may be going against the
self-imposed Hippocratic oath of this guidance I am
doing) are MANIFESTETED  as results IN THIS WORLD
ONLY. We are able to trace a particular suffering to a
particular crime and we get proof  (through
confessions and nadi- astrology readings) for them in
many cases. In these cases the suffering must have
been less, had some propitation taken place in HELL.
But doesn¡¦t seem so- making me to conclude that no
shedding of paapas had occurred at the transitory
level..
Perhaps this level called 7 hells in BS might be to do
with the state of existence  with jivas of similar
fate.(read my first mail on this topic)

#   In the absence of repentence, pariharas do not
bear fruits.

#  the core idea behind suffering seems to be
repentence,  positive action to undo the kind of 
results that would have accrued due to the crime ( a
chance is given to see how the affected party would
have felt and  by seeing or feeling this, repentence
level is increased thereby reducing  the prolongation
of agony )and pro-active positive action.

>These are
 >just my views 
> which I felt are different from yours. I am open for
„« corrections for 

I too am open for correction 
 I may be wrong or right ¡V partly
 But what is imporatnt is that we don¡¦t remain mute.
 We ask, search for answers and this probably will
make us better people
Will make us improve our awareness about so many
things,
Particularly about pain and sufferings
And to sensitise ourselves to pain  
And grow in compassion , empathy and ahimsa.
Perhaps it is for this we need to be treated with
images of 
 gories of  hell and 
the sweetness of heaven!!

Jayasree sarnathan



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