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Re: regarding casteism Is there historic support ?

From: Rajaram Venkataramani (
Date: Fri Jan 18 2002 - 08:21:29 PST

Dear Sri Madhavakannan - 

Thanks for your knoweldgeable comments. What are the
DIRECT statements from sruti and smrti  indicating
caste is by birth only ? Knowing this would convince

While I do not want to base my arguments based on Al
Beruni's comments, it definitely gives a pointer to
the state of society. The fact that there is
degradation is clear from the fact that except for
brahmins (that too some) others do not perform the

Rajaram V. 

--- Madhavakkannan V <>
> SrI:
> SrImathE GopaladEsika Mahadesikaya namah:
> Dear Sri Rajaram,
> Thanks for your response.
> Not all AzhwArs were non brahmins. (I do not know
> about nAyanmArs). And 
> AzhwArs were "mayarvaRa mathinalam arULap
> peRRavargaL"; They are the 
> incarnations of the most merciful Lord Sriya: Pathi
> Sriman Narayanan's 
> paraphrenelia (sent as delgates by the Lord) to
> rectify and correct the 
> baddha jIvAthmAs (us). we refuse to get done is
> another issue:-(
> the pramAnAs are both sruthi and smruthi. Sruthis
> (Vedas) and smruthis 
> (ithihAsas, purANAs) have declared as described in
> the earlier posting. If 
> any text contradcits Vedas, it is to be rejected as
> Vedas are apourushEyam 
> (authorless). EmperumAn does not violate His own
> command and instructions 
> (i.e. Vedas as they are His breath).
> All pramANAs eulogize the devotees from all castes
> are valid as long as it 
> doesn't violate other pramAnAs.
> In short, summary of the previous posting:
> 1. varNAs are based on body and fixed by birth.
> 2. Though the nature of jIvAtmA are essentially
> same, the type of body it 
> gets according to its karmA determines the varNA and
> therefore its dharmAs / 
> duties / type of kainkaryams.
> 3. varNAs and the related karmAs associated with it
> as a way of performing 
> ArAdhanA(worship) to Sriman nArAyaNA are only for
> baddha jIvAtmAs, and is 
> irrelevant for muktAs and nitya soorIs. As long as
> one is in this leelA 
> vibhUti, one has to follow the varNAshrama dharmA.
> 4. Irrespective of the varNA, everyone can perform
> kainkaryam to SrIman 
> nArAyaNA. This doesn't mean that one can do whatever
> one likes to. SAstrAs 
> as the divine commmands of Sriman nArAyaNA specifies
> it for the welfare of 
> everyone / society as a whole .
> 5. The eligibility to perform intimate kainkaryams
> to PerumAL arises after 
> undergoing samAsrayanam and anyone irrespective of
> the caste can undergo it.
> 6. Anyone irrespective of the caste can attain
> moksham through prapatti 
> wherein the Divya dampati are themselves the
> upAyam(means)to attain them.
> 7. All prapannAs / bAgavathAs irrespective of varNA
> are glorifiable and 
> should be highly respected with heart and mind.
> 8. Ardent devotion to Sriman nArAyaNA doesn't change
> varNA since varNA is 
> based on the body one acquires at the time of birth.
> 9. The code of conduct among prapannAs / bhAgavathAs
> are to be in accordance 
> with varNAshrama dharmAs and not according to one's
> own whims and fancies.
> Are varNas based on birth ?
> This is an already well-settled issue in
> PUrva-MImAmsa. All the possible 
> objections (including that of one being a brAhmaNa
> based upon only his 
> qualities) are taken into account and is decisively,
> the siddhAnta is made 
> that only "Birth" fixes the varNa. Smrutis etc
> ofcourse re-states the same 
> view. For instance, Sage Aapasthambha, in his very
> starting (SUtras 4-8) of 
> his most-famous DharmaSAstra Sutras says
> "chatvArO varNA brAmhaNa-kshatriya-vaiSya-sUdrAH |
> tEshAm pUrvaH pUrvO janmataH SrEyAn |
> aSoodrANAm-adushTakarmaNAm-upAyanam
> vEdAdhyayanam-agnyAdhEyam
> phalavanti cha karmANi |
> SuSrUshA SUdrasyEtarEshAm vaRNAnAm |
> pUrvasminpUrvasminvarNE ni:SrEyasam bhUyaH | "
> ie. "There are four varNas : BrAhmaNa, Kshatriya,
> VaiSya and SUdra. Among 
> these, each preceding varNa is superior by birth to
> each subsequent. Those 
> who are not SUdras and are not guilty of evil deeds
> may undergo upanayanam, 
> perform vEda-adhyayanam and agni-related rites;
> These rites yield the 
> results/fruits. SUdras are to serve the other varNas
> ; The higher the varNa 
> they serve, the greater is their prosperity".
> Those who say that one becomes a brAhmaNa only due
> to their qualities, don't 
> accept ladies with very good qualities as a brAhmaNa
> and be eligible for 
> performing yAgam, as archakas in temples, recite
> Vedas etc !!
> (Extracted from Sri Anand Karalapakkam's article)
> Thus, one becomes a Srivaishnavan by pancha
> samskaram (and the qualities); 
> but brahmin is by birth.
> Regards
> Namo Narayana
> aDiyEn
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