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Re: interesting views from Dr. SMS Chari's Sribhasya class

From: Sampath Rengarajan (
Date: Thu Feb 15 1996 - 06:37:18 PST

On Feb 14,  4:57pm, Vidyasankar Sundaresan wrote:
> Subject: interesting views from Dr. SMS Chari's Sribhasya class
> I don't want to get into an advaita/viSishTAdvaita debate on this
> list, mostly due to reasons of availability of time. But I thought a
> few comments in response to Krishna Kalale's recent post were in
> order.
> I don't doubt that the very purpose of the SrIbhAshya is to put
> forth a school of vedAnta different from advaita. For that matter,
> the purpose of the gauDapAdIya kArikAs and Sankara's bhAshyas is to
> establish a system of vedAnta that is different from the bhedAbheda
> of bhartr.prapanca and others.
> Krishna Kalale wrote:
> >>>>
> This is further confirmed by the next sutra - janmaadyasya yathaha
> - from whom this universe is created, protected, in whom all this
> gets destroyed, etc. - is bramhan.  So the action of creation,
> destruction, protection become attributes of this bramhan - they are
> tatastha lakshanas - ie.
> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> incidental attributes not attributes of form of bramhan (they are
> >>>>
> advaita also characterizes this as tatastha lakshaNa, which is not
> necessarily the svarUpa lakshaNa of brahman.
> >>>>
> satyam jnanam anantham). Since action is indicated in creation etc.,
> 				^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
> then bramhan is definitely not nirvishesha here.  Even Sri
> Sankaracharya accepts that bramhan here means ishwara  - who is
> Saguna who is ultimately not real - only relatively real as per
> advaita.
> >>>>
> AptakAmasya kA spr.hA? The actions of creation etc. are not
> essential to the real nature of brahman, which the brahmasUtra
> itself recognizes because it says creation is just sport.

 In the original state, before creation starts, nothing exists, except for
Vishnu Himself. He has, then always four aspects namely pradhana or the quality
of being the origin and support of all things, purusha or the quality of
becoming a person or persons, also described as the soul or souls, vyukta or
the capacity to evole and kala or undivided time. Tha pancharatra texts
describe this original state as waveless one and that everything begins from
here. However, this can argued that even pancharatra is time bound and is void
of any information before this state of waveless form. Since it is not possible
to understand the reason why creation should begin at all, it is possible to
derive some logic with the help of material intelligence on this act of
Brahman. In the abscence of convincing explanation, it has been described as
the "sport" of the supreme being. This is the traditional explantion and need
not be accepted literally and can more appropriately be regarded as equivalent
to saying that the supreme being exhibits HIS super abundant energy in action.
This experiment is one possibility though and not a only one and final

Nammazhwaar says

"viNmeethjiruppaay, malaimElniRpaay, kadRsErpaay
maNmeethuuzhazhvaay, ivaRRuLeNgum maRainthuvaay
enmeethiyenRa puRavaNdaththaay enathaavi
unmeethaadi urukkaattaadhE oLipaayO ?

viNmeethiruppaay  	 - Parath thuvam (in parama patham)
malaimEl niRpaay         - vibavam (as an avthaaraa as Rama or Krishnaa)
kadal sErpaay            -  vyookam (in thirup paRkadal divided as 5 vyuukam)
maNmeethu uzhzhvaay      - archchai (in those 108 and other divya dEsams as
						    archaa morrthy)
en meethiyanRa puRavandaay - residing in everyone as antharyaamim
 Since as per Sri Vidya sankar, certain logics is introduced into every
advaitin argument, I have a problem here to say that plain truth can stand
alone and no logic is needed to establish it. Since vedaas and upanishads can
be questioned on authorship, the plain truth can be one that which is either
spoken by the Lord HIMself or it is delivered by the Lord's own messangers in
his direct presence and offer it HIM as a pada kaaNikkai.

 I donot wanna sound like the evangalists of modern religion's to view with
material evidances, that talk about "the most documented religion etc". But let
us deal within our own accepted paarampariyam. We are not in Srivaikundam or
thirup paaRkadal to hear HIM say this truth on HIMslef or para Brahmam now.
Neither we are aware of as to what creation we belonged to when the avathaarams
came in here. We are not that holy yet (like Ramaanujaa's mentor) to talk to
the archaa morrthy and hear the truth from HIM. We however have the lord
residing in each of us, but we are no holy to realise it with our own efforts.
So we seek to the messages of the Lord in realising these. The only one such
message that came from the God HIMself is Sri math Bagwath Geethaa. Krishna is
the only one who not only revealed his universal form but also said HE is God.
All the other avathaarams never said they were God. Neither the moderen
religions prophets said so. They said they wer messangers or Son of God etc and
they were absoluetly correct and true in saying so. Their religions are also to
be considered as valid and true. However the only known occassion GOD delivered
truth on HIM by his ownself is the only "COMPREHENSIVE" truth on Brahman and
that is Srimath Bagwath Geetha, as it is told by God Himself in his original
form. There are some part knowledge on this truth (ie truth on Brahman) which
were said before by demigods to devaas. These are not comprehensive truth as
they were preached to devaass and others when they had their anyyaanam on
Brahman and also not by Brahman HImslef in his true form . In Srimath Bagwath
Geetha HE says,

 "Iam the knower of all ie including MYself. No knowlege is complete untill it
knows me completely".

 Since HE alone can be the Knower of everything and including HIMself, how come
a messanager like Adisankara can show us the ultimate knowledge on Brahman ?
Any attempt to derive supporting arguments from part truth is a good first step
but rudimantary and not complete.  so Let us only believe what Sri Krishna
says if we want to reach HIM finally. No doubt Sri Adisankara's messages are
truth but they are part truth only and stops short of the final destiny. Before
placing my statement let me talk about the second literature that according to
us is the truth. ie. Naalaayira divya prabandam. This was presented to the Lord
HIMSelf in his true form by the three azhwaars. Since HE is the physical
witness and testimony and destiny and also that HE accepted them directly,
these paasurams are considered the truth on HIMself. More to say that he also
exhibited three of his forms including parath thuvam as brahman (according to
Sri Bagwath Geetha this is the form of parath thuvam that can be seen by us),
and antharyaamith thuvam as an inner resident (ie as spiritual light) and also
as the arutperum Jyothi which is one his five vyukaas individually to the three

 While Sri math Bagwath Geetha is considered the absolute truth on HIM, these
three anthaathis are considered the three unique rahasyaas of Srivaishnavaas
which were later explained by as Srimath Rahasya thra saaram. These three
rahsyaas are also the elaboration of our vEdaanthaa which is later coined as
Sri vishishtaadthvaidaa. There cannot be two conflicting truth on anything. But
there can two different versions of the truth that is possible. When I look at
the statue of liberty from an airoplane, I see a miniature toy unreachable in
the bottom of me. When I goto Elis Island to see the statue of Liebrty I see a
symbol of freedom standing there pride and tall. And when I am assuming that I
am myself statue of liberty, I donot see anything and this state of assumption
is also a truth but not the complete truth. The complete truth is that there is
a statue of Liberty standing out there and it has all extarordinary flavour in
it. Samy way if Brahman is looked at from three different places, three
different perceptions are observed.

  All of them are true. But each of them are to be carefully examined as to
which you would want to realise. As per Advaithin philosophy, the brahman is
realised as absolute and within one's self. But as per Sri Krishna's messages,
HE chose to support us from antharaayamam as a resident and that both HIM and
the other souls (such as arjunaa) never were extinct. meaning they always
co-existed. But this co-existance is essentially facilitated by HIM as an
antharyaamim. Any attempt to realise this antharyaamim is possible. However
antharyaamim is not the final destination of the soul. As this soul attempts to
realise the antharyaamim, the antharyaamim due to its infinite mercy grant this
soul the state of realising it and being (staying) absolute in itself ie the
antharyaamim makes this soul feels that it is abolute and doesnot let the soul
to take birth and death again untill such time the antharyaamim hold itself as
a separate entity in a kalpa. However, the antharyaamim is the creation of
parath thuvam and when the parath thuvam recalls all the other four forms to
itslef, antharyaamim becomes a subordinate to the parath thuvam and merges with
it. This is the return action of the creation action and this "dynamics"
doesnot stop there. When this antharyaamim is released again either in the
sport or in the creation cycle, the souls too are returned with this. It is not
clear whether these souls are again made take to its birth and death cycle with
this antharyaamim due to its inner asscoaition with other unrealised souls
inside the parath thuvam so that these souls are given with yet another chance
to seek the final destiny as parath thuvam or they are sent back to their
granted state of "absoluteness" as supoorted by the antharyaamim. However in
either case these souls are never part of the parath thuvam as they are
separated again and again at the start of each cycle and that it is possible
that they donot realsie this separtion due to the state granted by the
antharyaamim. Only those who surrendered become nitya suris and that they are
not recycled during these cycles of creation and destruction. They however
descend down on two ocaasions one is when they request the Lord to take them
with HIM,ie when he takes an incarnation as in the case of devaas as gopikaas
for Krishnaa. or When the Lord needs to send them as messangers (like our
poorvaachaaryaas, jeers and aandvaans) who look ordinary to us but were never
seperated by HIM and are realised souls for ever.

> Speaking purely
> logically, if we accept that creation etc. are not essential
> features of brahman's svarUpa, there is no reason why we should
> insist on the ultimate description of that brahman as being saguNa,
> is there? Where there is only One, how does differentiation even
> begin?

 We donot accept creation etc as a mere logic but as plain Truth told by
in Krishna avthaaram. A truth doesnot require a logic to establish itself.
Logics is man made and perceived by material intelligence only. Since we
beleive in what namaazhwaar said in naalaayiram the antharyaamith thuvam is by
itself the last in the order of HIS creation and any attempt to seek HIS union
with antharyaamith thuvam alone as absolute is not the final resolve of
 Srivaishnavaas. Being in me and supporting me by HIS antharyaamith thuvam HE
makes me write this and also tells me to seek HIM in the final form as para
Brahman who resides in Srivaikundam only and to serve HIM for ever as a nitya

 Since Adisankara accepts Sri krishnaa and Srimath Bagawatham it is possible
that he will accept the truth of Sri Krishnaa, (though I am unaware if he ever
referred to muthal aazhwwaars who preceded him), and that it is possible to
understand that his mandate was to explain the part truth only, ie seeking the
a union with antharyaamim (as a Brahman and absoluteness) only and that the
authority to explain the final destination has to be with someone who ever
existed with HIM in HIS parath thuvam ie it has to be explained by someone else
who is sEshaa to HIM (and one who was never separated from HIM) all the time ie
aadisEshaa which is Sri Raamaanuja himself.

Sri Raamaanujan thiruvadikalE saraNam
Sri Para vaasudEvan manchulla vaLLith thaayaar thriuvadikaLE saraNam
Sri Booma deVi Sri Oppiliappn thiruvadikalE saraNam
Sri Periyapiraati ranganaayakith thaayaar Sri Rangaraajan thiruvadikaLE saraNam

Sampath Rengrajan