FW: Digest bhakti.v004.n219
From the Bhakti List Archives
• February 9, 2000
Dear Mani
Can you please post this question for me. I am experiencing difficulty
in doing this.?
Thanks
Venkatesa Dasan
:Dear Sampath Kumar and other bhaghavathas
:
:Here is my question.
:
:CAN YOU PLEASE COME BACK WITH THE
:FOLLOWING:-
: (i) WHETHER THEY CREATE HUMAN BABY WITHOUT ANY MALE OR FEMALE EGGS
FROM
:ANYBODY?
:(ii) WHETHER THEY USE ANY ARTIFICIAL INTELEEGENCE LIKE IN ROBOT BUT
:IMPLEMENT A EXACT HUMAN LIKE BODY?
:(iii) IN THE CASE OF DOLLY (CLONNED COW) WHAT WAS THE METHOD ADOPTED?
:IF THE ABOVE DOUBTS OF MINE ARE CLEARED THEN I WILL ASK hh aNDAVAN WHO
:RETURNS HERE BY THIS MONTH END AND LET YOU KNOW.
:
:I can come back with answers from HH Andavan (Sri Rangaramanuja
:Mahadesikan) if you can supply answers to these questions.
:
:Venkatesa Dasan
:
:>Dear friends,
:>
:>Over the weekend adiyen and a few friendly neighours
:>were casually discussing vast advances that are
:>presently being made in the science of genetics.
:>
:>Ever since 1997 when scientists in UK first created
:>"Dolly", the clone of a cow, further strides have been
:>made in the capability of genetically turning out even
:>human babies! People are saying that today there is
:>enou
:...
-----Original Message-----
From: bhakti-errors@lists.best.com [mailto:bhakti-errors@lists.best.com]
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2000 10:01 PM
To: bhakti@lists.best.com
Subject: Digest bhakti.v004.n219
+ SrI:
+ SrI SrInivAsa parabrahmaNE nama:
+ AzhvAr tiruvaDigaLE SaraNam; emberumAnAr tiruvaDigaLE SaraNam
+ dEsikan tiruvaDigaLE SaraNam; jIyar tiruvaDigaLE SaraNam
This is the digest for the Bhakti mailing list, dedicated
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Please use this list to engage in informal dialogue with
others interested in these topics. This group is meant
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post to the list.
-------------- BEGIN bhakti.v004.n219 --------------
001 - narayanan.k.m@in.pwcgloba - Mumookshapadi -Thirumantra
Prakaranam Part-XII
002 - Ramakrishnan Kazhiyur-Man - Seeming Contradiction
003 - sampath kumar
Subject: Seeming Contradiction
Date: Sun, 06 Feb 2000 12:50:35 -0500
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Dear Members,
This question has been nagging me for quite some time now.
Our religion is one which allows a lot of individualism in approach
to the Lord and in the method of worship. In fact, to my knowledge,
there is no mandatory worship at all in the religion. Any method of
worship that is there, was given only as a suggestion and there is
always your own way of worshipping or considering the Lord.
However, in our Vaishnava sampradayam, the role of the Acharyan is
one of a guide to Lord. There is a no contradiction here. But going a
bit further, our sampradayam says that the Acharyan is the ONLY way to
His feet. There, in my view, comes the contradiction. How can there be a
total dependency on another person's advice in a religion that
emphasises so much individualism?
I would like to have your learned comments on this question.
Best regards
Ramakrishnan Kazhiyur-Mannar
--
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begin:vcard
n:Kazhiyur-Mannar;Ramakrishnan
tel;fax:1-614-292-2911
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url:www.cis.ohio-state.edu/~ramakris
org:The Ohio State University;Computer and Information Sciences Dept
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email;internet:kazhiyur-mannar.1@osu.edu
title:Teaching Associate
adr;quoted-printable:;;Room 474 - 17, Dreese Labs=0D=0A2015, Neil
Avenue;Columbus;Ohio;43210;The United States of Americs
fn:Ramakrishnan KM
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--------------- MESSAGE bhakti.v004.n219.3 ---------------
From: sampath kumar
Subject: Re: A Question Related to The Notion of Karma Mukti
Date: Mon, 7 Feb 2000 05:17:32 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Dear Venkat,
You wrote:
> Dear Bhagavatas,
> 1.mukti as related to suguna Brahman or nirguna
> Brahman is real only in an illusory sense; i.e. both
> are impermanent.
> 2. The individual who has attained mukti, with
> respect to suguna Brahman, is in a state of bliss,
> but is still under the influence of avidya.
> Whereas, the individual who has attained mukti, with
> respect to the nirguna Brahman, is in a state of
> bliss, but is also free from the influence of avidya
> (except for the trace.)
> Venkat
Pardon what may sound to you as rather naive questions
which adiyen however can't help asking:
(1) When one has attained "mukti" one is said (by
definition) to have have attained "liberation" from
all infirmities of mortal existence which includes
"avidya". Is it conceivable that a soul can attain
"mukti" and still labour under "avidya"? Doesn't it
appear to be a contradiction in terms?
(2) Secondly, attaining "Brahmam" (the ultimate,
unitive and non-differentiated experience), adiyen has
learnt, is a typically advaitic concept. Making a fine
distinction now, as you have done, between the
experience of "Brahmam" in its "nirguna" state and in
its "suguna" state falls right into the advaitin's
trap. It amounts to trying to "differentiate the
un-differentiated One". Don't you think the advaitin
is likely to turn around and argue that the "suguna
brahman" (the experience of "qualities")is not the
ultimate "Brahman" in his scheme of things since such
a state of "brahmic" experience is less than truly
unitive?
dAsan,
Sampathkumaran
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--------------- MESSAGE bhakti.v004.n219.4 ---------------
From: "A.Bharat"
Subject: Re Life of Kuresan
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 15:42:17 +0530
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Dear BhAgavatOttamas,
ADiyEn had the good fortune to learn Bhagavadvishayam
through kAlakshEpa under the feet of Sri BhoovarAhAchAriAr
SwAmin,and there was never even a hint of a doubt about
the seniority in years of SrI KUrattAzhvAn.The incident
refered to below by SrI sampathkumAran refers obviously
to the Seniority due to Guru-Sishya relashionship in respect
of EmberumAnAr.
That aside-
the passage quoted in English by Sri Sampathkumaran
occurs on page 228 of The Life of Ramanujacharya by Sri
Alkondaville Govindacharya (1906).There, while the rest of it
is in the author's own words,the actual quotation from Sri
Bhagavadvishayam is mentioned thus:
(On page 2527,Vol.V of the Telugu edition of the Bhagavadvishaya,
the conversation is thus recorded:- "While I am yet here,son,how
wert thou anxious for Heaven?" "Sire" said Kuresa,"in the depth
of my thoughts for the miseries of earthly existence,I forgot
this point.Pray forgive me." etc)
This is actually an accurate translation of the Arumbada-urai
of Eedu 5:10.PravESam, EXCEPT THAT in the original text the
word "son" does NOT occur.The word used there is "AzhvAn!"
The use of the word "son" throughout this passage is done by
the author of that book (which actually is an outstanding one
with many valuable quotations from inscriptions)who probably
never visualised a controversy such as this.Or maybe he also really
thought Sri KUrattAzhvAn was younger to Udaiyavar!
Sri EmberumAnAr TiruvaDigaLE SaraNam!
aDiyEn
BHARAT
________________________________________________________________
>To this Ramanuja is reported to have replied,"Dearson, my beloved
azhwAn, thou art my soul, how can I
part with thee? While I am yet here, son, how can you
be anxious for heaven?". (Page 2527 of Vol 5 of
"Bhagavatvishayam").
In the above passages, Ramanuja clearly addresses
Kuresan as "son". And Kuresan too clearly talks of
younger brothers preceding "elders" to heaven.
--------------- MESSAGE bhakti.v004.n219.5 ---------------
From: sampath kumar
Subject: "genetic engineering" and religion
Date: Sun, 6 Feb 2000 01:28:03 -0800 (PST)
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Dear friends,
Over the weekend adiyen and a few friendly neighours
were casually discussing vast advances that are
presently being made in the science of genetics.
Ever since 1997 when scientists in UK first created
"Dolly", the clone of a cow, further strides have been
made in the capability of genetically turning out even
human babies! People are saying that today there is
enough knowledge and competence to enable scientists
to clone a full-fledged human being. All that holds
the genetic scientist back are ethical considerations
and legal hurdles. Once these hurdles are overcome
genetic manufacturing of human beings is likely in the
first decade of the new millenium itself.
In the course of the discussion the following
questions also figured which adiyen is, out of a sense
of curiosity and academic interest, putting out on the
bhakti-list to elicit comments and views of members:
(1) What is stand of the Vedic religion to human
cloning? Is the clone also a "baddha-jeeva"?
(2) Will present day religious leaders like
Sankaracharya, Azhagiyasingar and others support human
cloning or condemn it? Why and on what theological
grounds? (The Christian Church has come out against
human cloning, by the way. But then the Church was
also against the heliocentric view of the universe
when Copernicus first came out with that theory!)
(3) A human clone represents an exact biological
replica of the original. Is it a "spiritual-replica"
too? Does it have the "same" atomic soul ("aatmA")
too? Or is the clone to be treated as insentient... a
"jada"?
(4) If the human soul can be said to be 'cloned' then
isn't such cloning a bit like "srushti" or creation
itself? Has Man finally become God?
(5) If the original soul (aatmA) has a load of "karma"
upon it, then, does the soul of the cloned human also
have similar "karma"? Or does the clone start its
"kArmic" journey afresh from the first moment of its
cloned creation and existence?
(6) Do the "punya" and "pApa"... sin and good deed...
of the original human attach to the clone? And vice
versa? Are the cloned and the clone mutually
responsible for each other's actions in a moral sense?
(7) If the original human attains 'liberation' or
'mOksha' will the clone also similarly attain it? If
not why not?
These are all questions which may sound
"hypothetical", "far-fetched" or even whimsical. But
let it be known that profound changes are taking place
in the world of genetic science which are sooner than
later bound to have enormous impact on our age-old
notions and concepts of religion and morality.
Religion must wake up to these new realities and begin
to formulate its own responses to such difficult
questions of faith and moral conundrums.
Any views, thoughts or comments?
dAsan,
Sampathkumaran
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--------------- MESSAGE bhakti.v004.n219.6 ---------------
From: "Lakshmi N. Srinivasa"
Subject: Appeal from Pon Vilainda Kalathur - Chaturbujam Ramar
Date: Sat, 05 Feb 2000 16:29:48 PST
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Adiyen is forwarding an email from my friend on an appeal to bhakti
list.
Adiyen
Lakshminarasimhan
Sri :
Sri Ramajayam
Sri Seetha Lakshmana Bharatha Shatrugna Hanumath Sametha
Sri Raghunandana Parabrahmane Namaha
Appeal for Sri. Kothanda Ramar Koil, PonVilantha Kalathur
=========================================================
Appeal in Tamizh (appeal in english and more information follows)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
"
Sri :
Sri Ramajayam
Sri Seetha Lakshmana Bharatha Shatrugna Hanumath Sametha
Sri Raghunandana Parabrahmane Namaha
Sri Kothandaramar & Sri Dharbhasayana Sethuramar Kainkarya Sabha
P.V.Kalathur
Pon Vilaintha Kalathur Sri Parankusapura Agraharathil Thirukkoil kondu
ezuntharuliyirukkum Sri Kothanda ( Paatbhi ) Raman Sannidhi, Giramam
erpatta Athi kalathileye Ayirakkanakkaana varushangalunku mun "
Giramathuku merke Vishnu Koyilum, Vadakizakil Sivabiranin Koyilum
irukkavendum " engira Girama lakshanathirku ettra muraiyil merpadi
giramathil avatharitha mahan- galal kattpattu Vishnu Koilil Sri
Pattabhi (Kothand) Ramarum, Sivan Koilil Sri Munkudumeeswararum
prathistai seyvikkappattanar.
Mathhiyil kalapakalathil chinnabinnamakkappatta merpadi Ramar Koyilai
sumar 500 varushangalukku munbu Sri Ahobhilamadathil Munravathu
pattathai alangaritha Sri Parankusa Yatheendra Mahadesikan
Jeernotharanam seyvithu Kancheepuram Thoopul Sir Vethantha Desikan
avathara sthalathil thirukkoil kondu ezuntharuli- yirukkum thivya desa
emberumanagiya " vilakkoli perumal " enum Deepaprakasarin theertha
parigrahathudan " puna : Prathistai " seytharulinar. Piragu merpadi
madathil Aravathu pattathil moorthabhishiktharai ezuntharuliyiruntha
Sri Sashta Parankusa Yatheendra Mahadesikan intha sannidiyai
marupadiyum Jeernotharanam seyvithu tham prathistai seyvitha Aru
agraharangalil Ivvagraharathaiyum onraga brahmavasthu muraiyil
manthira poorvakamaga prathistai seyvithu thamathu Acharyan thretheeya
parankusa yatheedra mahadesikanudaiyavum, thammudaiyathu- magiya podu
thirunamathiye manathe kondu " Parankusapuram " enru intha
agraharathirku peyaritta vishayam migavum prasitthamanathuminri Sri
Ahobhila madathu dasthavejukalilum nalthu thethiyilum kankoodagak
kanbathrkuriyathu. thavira Mamallpuramenum Kadalmalai
Thalsayanathemberuman theertha parigrahamum undu. Thaviravum, Ivvoril
Nalavenba ezuthiya pugazh pettra kavichakravarthy Sir
Pugazenthipulavarum, Koothuva Nayanarum, Anthakakavi Veerararagha
mudaliyarum Arumugappavalarum Padikkasutthampiranum avatharithullanar.
Melum Sri Ahobhila Madathil 35 vathu pattathai alngarithavarum "
Kalikarnan" enap pugazhpettravarumana Sri Kalathur Azagiya Singar,
Srivan Satakopa Sri Ranganatha Yatheendra Maha Desikanum thamizh
nattuth thatha ena azaikapatta pettravarum Congress Maha Sabhhaiyai
arambithu namathu thai nattin viduthalaikku adikkolittavargaili
oruvarumana desiyavathi Desiyavathi Selam Dr C Vijayaraghavachariyar
avargalum ivvooril athilum parankusa agraharathil avatharitha mahangal
enbathu pattri nam migavum perumaipadakoodiaya vishayam.
Enave, merkurippitta vidhathil migavum prasiddipettra nam ooril
adhiyil thonriya Sri Kothanda (Pattabhi) raman sanndihiyin melthalam
pazuthadainthu mazaikallangalil nirkasivu erpadukirathu. Angangu
pazuthu erpattullana. Melum 09-10-1989 anru Sri Seethai Anjaneyar
silaikal kalavadappattu acchilaigal meendum kidaithu acchilaigal
sithilamadainthapadiyal meendum pudiya silaigal ithuvarai prathistai
seyyapadavillai. Agave merpadi silaigali pudidhaga nirmanithu
prathisthtai seythal, koyilin thalathai seersaythal ulpakka
suvargalukku vannam poosudhal suttru prakarangalin tharaipaguthiyai
seer seythal, Angangu erpattulla pazhuthugalai seer seythal
agiyavaigali Sri Kothandaram & Sri Dharbhasayana Sethuramar Kainkarya
Sabha moolam niraivera vendum ena theermanikkapattullathu.
Enave ithai kannurum bhaktargal intha kainkaryangalil pangettru Sri
Chakravarthy thirumaganin poorana katakshathirku pathiraragumpadi
anbudan kettukolgirom.
ippadikku
Sri Kothandaramar & Sri Dharbhasayana Sethuramar
Kainkarya Sabha
P V Kalthur - 603 405.
Appeal in English (not an exact translation)
--------------------------------------------
Sri :
Sri Ramajayam
SRI KOTHANDA RAMAR & SRI DHARBHASAYANA SETHURAMAR KAINKARYA SABHA
NEW STREET, P.V.KALATHUR - 603 405.
KANCHEEPURAM DIST. TAMILNADU.
A HUMBLE APPEAL
Ponvilaintha Kalathur Village is situated 10 Kms beyond south of
Chengalpattu town and is connected by frequent buses from Chengal
pattu. Lord Narayana casts HIS divinely shadow here form HIS abode of
Sri Kothanda Ramar with Sri Seetha Devi, Sri Lakshmana and Sri
Anjaneya. One 09-10-1989, some thieves burgled into the Sannidhi and
took away the idol of goddess Sri Seetha Devi and Sri Anjaneya. The
idols were traced and handed over to the temple later. However it was
found unsuitable for reinstallation as they were damaged.
Thanks to the philanthrophy of a local devotee, who has consented to
bear the cost of new idols of Sri Seetha Devi and Sri Anjaneya which
have been arranged to cast at Swamimalai and will be ready for holy
installation ( Prathishta ). It is desired by the Sri Kothanda Ramar
and Sri Darbhasayana Sethuramar Kainkarya Sabha. Ponvilaintha Kalathur
to undertake the work of long felt renovations in the temple now like
(i) weathering course over the ceiling of Ardha Mantapam (ii)
replastering the Vimanam over 'Gabagraha' (iii) Covering the open
space within the temple with Cement mortar in order to ensure safe
movement of devotees (iv) painting the Vimanam and other places (v)
erection of idols of Sri Rama Sri Seetha Sri Lakshmana and Sri
Anjaneya in Cement mortar atop the entrance of the Ardha Mantapam (vi)
and then to install the new idols of Sri Seetha Devi and Sri Anjeneya
in the Kothanda Ramar Temple along with the existing idols of Sri
Kothanda Ramar and Sri Lakshmana.
A fairly large fund is required to undertake and complete the above
items of renovation works. The Maha Samprokshanam ( Kumbhabhishekam)
of Sri Kothanda Ramar Temple after the renovation is proposed to be
performed on 16th March, 2000 (Thursday). The members of the
Kainkarya Sabha / Asthikas who are desirous to contribute their mite
to this divinely venture are requested to contribute liberally and be
the receipient to the benevolent blessings of Sri Rama. All payments
may be made by crossed Cheque/Demand Draft in favour of Sri Kothnda
Ramar & Sri Dharbasayana Sethuramar Kainkarya Sabha payable at
Ponvilanintha Kalathur and sent to
Sri. S. Sampath
Secretary,
Sri Kothanda Ramar & Sri Dharbasayana Sethu Ramar
Kainkarya Sabha,
New Street, P.V.Kalathur - 603 405.
(via ) Chengalpattu, Tamilnadu.
Thanking you,
SRI KOTHANDARAMAR & SRI DHARBASAYANA
SETHURAMAR KAINKARYA SABHA ,
P.V. KALATHUR - 603 405. "
More Information
----------------
Some information not mentioned in the appeals :
* The Dharbhasayana Sethuramar Sannidhi was installed rather
recently, only in the 20th century. The Urchava Vigraham - Sri Ramar
was found in the well within the temple precincts and the same fact
was revealed in the dreams of one of the devotees in kalathur. The
vigraham has insription - "Danushkoti Ramar" in the kireetam.
* The Moolavar of Dharbhasayana Sethuramar was installed by the
grandsons of Selam vijayaraghavachariyar and the samprokshanam was
performed by His Holiness The 44th Jeeyar of Ahobila Mutt.
* The Pattabhi Ramar koil contains sannidhis for Sri Pattabhiramar
(main sannidhi), Sri Srinivasar with Sridevi and Boodhevi, Thayar
Sannidhi, Alwargal Sannidhi.
* The BAALAALAYAM for the temple has been recently done. By this the
original vigrahamoorthys' Aavahanam is done on paintings and Puja is
done only for the paintings so that repair works etc can be done at
the original garbhagrahams etc.
* Very near to PVK, there is another village Ponpatharkoodam, where
the deity Charthur Buja Ramar is also very famous.
A few decades ago, a seperate Sannidhi for Anjaneyar was constructed
by aDiyEn's grandfather, Sri Neeradi K Srinivasaraghavachariyar (whose
sister's father-in-law is the great scholar - Sri SWARNAM SWAMY).
aDiyEn was physically present at that time the vigrahams of Sri Seetha
and Sri Anjaneya were moulded out in Swami Malai.
The total expenses would go to at least around Rs. 4 lakhs. The only
person active is one Mr. Santhanam who is employed in T N Electricity
Board, at Chengalpattu. Strangely he does'nt belong to PVK but
however has now built a house at PVK in New Street with plans of
settling down their. In India, only those belonging to PVK might show
some interest in this Appeal and even so they may not be able to
contribute much. Therefore, your generous contributions would be of
great help to re-establish this wonderful temple.
PLEASE MAKE YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS PAYABLE IN THE NAME OF :
SRI KOTHANDA RAMAR & SRI DHARBHASAYANA SETHURAMAR KAINKARYA SABHA
(also, please provide your name and address for the receipts)
PLEASE SEND THE CHEQUES TO :
Address in India OR, Address in the US
(of aDiyEn): (of aDiyEn's nephew):
Sundar Rangachari Sriram Govindarajan
F-1, Temple View Apts., 2920 Scioto Street, Apt. 703
14/15, Thyagaraya Gramani St., Cincinnati, OH 45219
T.Nagar, Chennai - 600017 Ph: 513-556-8443
INDIA. Email: sriram@ececs.uc.edu
OR, you may directly send them to the SABHA in P.V.Kalathur.
Thank you,
aDiyEn,
Sundar Rangachari
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--------------- MESSAGE bhakti.v004.n219.7 ---------------
From: "Venkatesh Elayavalli"
Subject: Re: Seeming Contradiction
Date: Mon, 07 Feb 2000 17:20:11 PST
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed
Dear Sri Ramakrishnan,
> Our religion is one which allows a lot of individualism in
approach
>to the Lord and in the method of worship. In fact, to my knowledge,
>there is no mandatory worship at all in the religion. Any method of
>worship that is there, was given only as a suggestion and there is
>always your own way of worshipping or considering the Lord.
This, in my opinion, is a generalization based on a corrupted view of
the
Advaitic traditions, which basically ended up pushing the idea of
individualism. I do not want to go into the debate on why I feel so,
here.
However, in Vaishnava traditions, be it Sri Vaishnava or other branches
of
Vaishnavam, temple worship is very important. The very fact that all 11
out
of 12 alwars performed mangalaasaasanam at various temples is a standing
example of the importance of worship and saranagathi.
> However, in our Vaishnava sampradayam, the role of the Acharyan is
>one of a guide to Lord. There is a no contradiction here. But going a
>bit further, our sampradayam says that the Acharyan is the ONLY way to
>His feet. There, in my view, comes the contradiction. How can there be
a
>total dependency on another person's advice in a religion that
>emphasises so much individualism?
>
Again, here I believe you are mixing the two traditions (viz, advaitic
and
visitadvaitic). That said, YOU DO NEED AN ACHARYA for the advaitic
tradition
too, to understand how the individual realization (jivan-mukti) can be
attained.
The distinction is in the word ONLY. we give more importance to the
Acharya,
who has the responsibility to deliver the sishya to the Lord
(saranagathi).
However, this is not a must with the other system, which gives
importance to
Gnyana yoga and depends totally on the individual. So the effort by the
acharya in such a tradition is limited.
In our Sampradhayam, we believe that Lord has some qualities and with
the
acharya's blessings (and his prapatti on behalf of the Sishya) one can
get
moksham. there are many works that address this: PVP's Manikka maalai,
Pillai Lokacharyas Artha panchakam, etc.
These discuss the relationship between the Lord and the jiva and how an
acharya can make a difference.
the bottom line is the concept of saranagati that differentiates between
our
tradition and the rest.
Adiyen
Venkatesh K. Elayavalli Cypress Semiconductor
Data Communications Division 3901 N. First St. MS 4
Phone: (408) 456 1858 San Jose CA 95134
Fax: (408) 943 2949
email: elayavalli@hotmail.com (external)
Home Page Location: http://www.srivaishnava.org
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