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Date: Mon Aug 07 1995 - 13:10:10 PDT

Subj: Re- Wondering

Dear Manjula,

Thanks for raising some very basic questions which
has stimulated a noteworthy discussion . I have 
some loose change to contribute to the treasure of info
posted by others .

Manjula, you asked :
>>Well What is the difference between Brahmins/SriVaishnavas?
 >>Other than the known one that is brahmins follow shiva and
>> sri-vaishnavas follow vishnu.  Even I can give that reason.
>> I guess I am looking a for a more detailed reason.

Most Sri-Vaishnavas are Brahmins (not a requirement though).
However all Iyengars are Brahmins. Likewise all Iyers are also
Brahmins. These are Teluge (Iyya or Aiyya ) and Tamil (Iyer) 
words for the elderly or the revered ones. Because Brahmins 
were traditionally revered by the other castes, the Telugus
used to address them as Aiyya oy Iyya (Father) and Tamils used
to address them as Iyer.  Even to day some Tamil workers  address 
their boss or other people of upper strata as   Iyere vandar and Telugu
workers use the phrase Ayyagaru wochindaru. In most other South Asian 
languages  including Kannada the word used is Yajaman (performer 
of the Yagnas,  directly from the Vedas).

Some people are of the view that  Iyengar is the literal translation of the
term Tatachar (because Tata means father in Sanskrit). The origin
of the word Tatachar is Tirumalai (Andhra Pradesh). One of the 
Patriarchs of the Sri Vaishnava Guru parampara (a descendant
of Shatamarshana and to his lineage belong the 
Natha Muki and Yamuna Muni) was addressed as Tata(father) by the God
Sriman Narayana Himself appearing as a hunter and drank water
from his hands. His descendants got the name Tatachar and the Telugu

translation of this is Iyengar . So Manjula, looks like you are closer to
the origin of Iyengars than are theTamils!!!

Sri-Vaishnavas(followers of Ramanujacharya) are worshippers
 of Vishnu(Sriman Narayana) and Lakshmi. That is why we
have the word Sri which refers to Godess Lakshmi (Tayar). 
Other Vaishnavites are strictly followers of  Krishna
or other incarnates of Vishnu such as Srinathji,  Swaminarayan etc.
That is they do not place the same importance for VishnuUs
consort Lakshmi. 
Some examples of other Vaishnavas are:
Gaudia Vaishnavas(followers of Gauranga=Chaitanya)
Hare Krishnas (followers of Srila Prabhupada Bhaktivedanta), 
Pushti Margis(followers of Vallabhacharya), 
Swaminarayans (followers of Swaminarayan), 
Madhvas (followers of Madhwacharya) 

Interstingly, the Swaminarayans worship Swaminarayan as the
Vishnu incarnate and his first shishya as His consort. Together they
form the Akshar-Purushottam duo. I guess, they have elevated the 
first disciple of Swaminarayan to his consort status.

Hindus (irrespective of the caste ) can be broadly classified into many 
These groups are not water tight compartments.  Almost all are leaky, some 
more leaky than the others. 
Saivites: Worshippers of Shiva (includes Subramanya)
Shaktas: Worshippers of the female power Shakti (Devi, Kali, Durga, Chamundi
Vaishnavites: Worshippers of Vishnu 
Others (eg., Arya Samajis): Worship only Nirguna Brahma (God with no form)
and Others (followers of Hari and Hara, eg., Ayyappa devotees)

In other words, the God worshipped is nothing to do with caste, creed, color 
nationality.  For example,  Vaishnavite (worshipper of Vishnu) can be of any
color, language or nationality.  Many Hare Krishnas are Whites from Europe and
the Americas. My daughter and son are born here, so they are citizens of USA 
are Sri-Vaishanavas( or Iyengars uptill now at least!). The same can be said 
the followers of Shiva Siddhanta Church of Hawai. The founder is a White and
many of its 
followers are Whites. But they follow Shiva(Subramanya)

Generally, Shaivites (especially the Smarta Brahmins) are more liberal. They

worship Shiva, Vishnu and Devi. As Mr. Srinivasan has pointed out,
 Adi Sankara wrote several stotrams dedicated to Vishnu. Not only that
he prescribed Vishnu Sahasranamam and Bhagavadgita as the two 
texts one should reminisce (Gayum Gita Namasahasram c.f. Bhaja Govindam).

Stories of Vishnu glorifying Shiva and vice versa abound in our Scriptures. 
few examples : 
Rama worshipped Shiva Lingam at Rameshwar after and or
before the battle with Ravana.
Shiva is believed to have appeared as Hanuman to assist Rama.
Shiva says that taking just the name of Rama  alone has the benefit
of reciting the entire Vishnu Sahasranama stotram.

Govinda (who later got the Embar name from ramanuja), 
the cousin of Ramanuja had settled down in Kalahasti(?) worshipping 
the Shiva Lingam  which he found in the North India and
his Guru Yadava Prakasha (at that point) blessed hin to do so.

It seems like even to today, only the Shaivaites have maintained this
that abound in our scriptures (not that we Sri-Vaishnavites hate Siva, it is
just that his worship does not come to us as spontaneously as the
worship of Rama or Krishna comes to  a Shaivaite).


Reference to caste system appears in the Vedic Purusha Suktam Hymn,
which is perhaps the most magnificient of the Vedic creation Hymns.
No Hindu ritual is complete without chanting at least a part of this Hymn.
May be we can take up discussion of this Hymn at some other point.
This Hymn forms the basis of the Hindu thought and most other 
scriptures including the Upanishada and the Gita are only  an elaboration
of this Hymn. Thus, the caste(Varna) system is elaborated in the Bhagavadgita.
 In chapter 18 Krishna  describes the characteristic features of the four
 Caste is a different issue from whether one is a Shakta, Shaiva or Vaishnava.

Manjula, you also asked:
>>Another thing I have always wondered is.. well what is the
>>difference between Iyengars and Sri-Vaishnava's why is it
>>that where ever I go I here tamilians say that Iyengars are
>>better and telugus say Sri-vaishnavas are better .. what happens
>>to people like us who are originally tamil iyengars but settled
>>in Andhra.

Just taking your statement for the face value (because, I have 
generally used Iyengars and SriVaishnavas as synnonims), the
preference for Iyengars would perhaps reflect Brahmin 
superiority, because all Iyengars are Brahmins, but not all
Sri Vaishnavas are Brahmins. 

If you recall Mr. Sadagopan's posting about the Shatamarshana
lineage, it is clear that the Patriarchs  of Nathamuni and Alavandar
originated from  the Himalayas (Angirasar) and migrated South through
banks of Ganga  in Haridwar(Shatamarshanar),  Saraswathi ,
Godavari, Krishna, Cauvery  (Andhra Pradesh, Tamil Nadu, Karnataka) 
(back and forth). I will post the detailed names and places for the various
 descendants in my translation of the book 
Shatamarshanara Ajana Siddha Mahime
 sometime when I get around other bread winning chores!

Also you may find the information about the origin of the word Iyengars  as
stated above interesting.


K. Sreekrishna.

PS: I would like our children (Naethra, 9 yr and Nishant  2 yr) to 
be as interested as you are about our roots as they grow up.
I hope you will be an inspiration to the new generation of the
Sri-Vaishnava (oops,  Iyengar) children growing up
here and everywhere.

Vardhataam abhi vardhataam!