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RE: Free will Vs Predetermination

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Krishna Kashyap • August 9, 2002 


Dear mr. Ramkumar,

your email is very appropriate. In fact there is some real difference
between Dvaita and Visistadvaita also in this regard.

Eventhough dvaita system accepts that jiva is a karta. In dvaita, since jiva
is a dependent entity on God, pradhana kartrtva is still God's. Jiva is only
a subservient entity. Then one may ask: if HE is the pradana karta or main
doer, why does God not get punished for the acts done by Jiva?  for this the
dvaita system's answer is : God is a bhokta ie. he experiences the pleasures
and good effects of jiva's acts but not the bad effects. ( as far as I
understand...feel free to correct me if I am wrong). This is clearly not
accepted by visistadvaita. According to visistadvaita, Jiva reaps his own
karmas whether good or bad according to his actions. In fact you can see Dr.
SMS Chari's books on this issue in his Upanisad, Sutras and Gita book (yet
to be published). He goes into the appropriate upanisadic statements such as
esha hi karta jnata...., karta sastrarthavatvat... ( I sent a separate email
on the release of his books and how to obtain them)

*********
Note this is only a quiz... just to perk the readers' interest in classical
works like Gita.
* quiz ( what is the meaning of the verse 14-11, gita : nanyam gunebhyah
kartaram yada drastanupasyati ... which seems to indicate otherwise?-
similarly,  prakrteh kriyamanani gunaih karmani sarvasah ahamkara vimudatma
karta aham iti manyate- also indicates that gunas are the doer not atma!!...
nakartrtvam na karmani lokasya srjati prabhuh.. 5-14..... note the
difference in karya karana kartrtve hetuh prakritiruchyate... purushah sukha
duhkhanam bhoktrtve heturuchyate...(13-20.. which indicates prakriti as
doer!..and jiva is enjoyer...
13-29 clearly says: prakrityaiva hi karmani kriyamani sarvashah yah pasyati
tathatmanam akartaram sa pasyati... only prakriti does all the work... who
sees that atma is not the doer, is right!!)

Guess what... these puzzling statements need some real serious kalakshepams
under great acharyas.  In the absense of such kalakeshepams or as an value
added resource one can read the forthcoming SMS Chari's book on Gita.

**********************************************

Coming back to our discussion here:

Hence, according to visistadvaita, Though we are totally dependent, our
freedom is clearly given to us. Using this given freedom we can use it for
good or bad which we have to experience and not God will not experience
them.

However, among individual people who belong to Visistadvaita, there is quite
a range of beliefs regarding jiva's freedom. People, in their daily life,
tend to understand and use this concept in different ways.  For example,
some people tend to reduce their self effort, thinking that it is all in
God's hands, eventhough they believe that they have to put their effort. If
we perfectly understand and live the way we understand this issue, I guess
we will be like a stithaprajna or an ideal karmayogi. some people..even do
all they can do and if it works well give the merit to God and if it fails,
blame it on them.... or some will put the blame on God!!..

Isn't this subject "kartrtva..  cool or what?... by the way can anyone just
write a 3 line definition of kartrva? ( believe me... it is not obvious).
another quiz... if jiva is a karta ... does he gets transformed during this
act in any way?....(these are some questions asked by  advaitins..)..

this is the subject for which one needs to contemplate deeply...(mananam.)..
I am interested in this since this subject fascinated me for years.

asmadgurbhyo namah.
Srimathe Ramanujaya Namah

krishna kashyap

-----Original Message-----
From: tg_ramkumar [mailto:tg_ram@excite.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 08, 2002 4:54 PM
To: bhakti-list@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Free will Vs Predetermination


SrImate rAmAnujAya nama:

The jIva  would reduce to an ontological absurdity
in viSishTAdvaita, if the brahman were completely
responsible for the jIva's gyAtRtva, kaRtRtva and bhOktRtva.




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