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RE: AntarvyApti and BahirvyApti (Was Re: Doubt)

From: Krishna Kalale (
Date: Tue Aug 01 2000 - 11:26:12 PDT

Asmad gurubhyo namah,

Sri Anand Karalapakkam has done a good job of explaining this issue.  I
would like to make some comments on this subject- antarvyaptitva and

My views are based on some dialogs I had with Dr. SMS Chari a while ago who
is a great thinker.  The mistakes here, if any are totally mine and the
credit belong to SMS chari and other gurus who taught me.  I am trying to
remember what he said and record my thoughts here as much as I my(incapable)
mind allows me to do so.  I am not saying that whatever I have written is
exactly correct.  I would like learned scholars to critic this information.
I want to learn more.

What is anutva?  I am sure everyone has a particular answer.  Let me take a
strike at that.  It is an infinitesimally small entity.  if X is a measure
of size, take for example Delta X,  as Delta X tends to zero.  It is a point
definition of some sort.  Anutva is a physical attribute, since it relates
to size which is again a physical attribute.  physical attributes are those
which are perceived by our senses - skin, eyes, ears etc. In other words
they are perceptible to pratyaksha pramana.  Is atma perceptible to
pratyaksha pramana ? NO. Hence jivatma is not perceptible to our senses.
(analogy - can you see through your tongue? - NO, similarly you cannot
perceive jivatma through senses).  It is only perceptible to jnana or "
sudhha dharma bhuta jnana".  Similarly Paramatma is also perceptible to
suddha dharma bhuta jnana.  Hence state the shastras _ na chakshusa pasyati
kachanainam hridaa manishaa manasabhiklrptah " - one cannot see him with
help of indriyas such as eyes but he is seen through pure mind / bhakti".
NOte that in the case of jivatma also statements such as :  utkramantam
stitham vaapi bhunjanam va gunanvitam vimudha nanupasyanti pashyanti jnana
chakshusah"  n - " The deluded one does not see this jivatma while it stays
in the body (while living) nor when that jivatma leaves the body at death,
But it is verily seen by the jnanis - jnana chakshusah - who have the eyes
of knowledge. yatanto yoginaschainam pasyanti atmani avastitam - The yogis
see this atman by effort who have surrendered themselves to ME ( Lord
Krishna) through the eyes of YOGA. In other words, our self (jivatma) is not
visible for pratyaksha jnana but only to yoga samskrita jnana or suddha
chitta ( pure mind with yogic siddhi attained by resorting to HIS lotus
feet).  self is a spiritual entity and hence it is visible to a spiritual
entity namely our jnana.

NOte that jivatma is a spiritual entity and hence size does not make any
sense to it.  But are the shastras which state - "valagra shata bhagasya
shatadha kalpitasyacha jivo bhagah sa vijneyah sa cha ananthyaya kalpate " -
" jiva is of the size of one ten thousandth part of a hair tip" - which
indicates that jiva is infinitesimal,  are in error?  NO the meaning here is
indicative ie. jiva is a very subtle entity which can be associated with
body of any small size.  In fact when jiva leaves the body and before it
gets into another body, it still has suksma sarira ( ie. indriyas and manas,
which are also subtle physical entities.  remember that indrias and manas
are one of the 24 evolutes of matter).  Jiva is associated with subtle
sharira, hence it is known as anu.  Anutva LOOSELY refers to jiva being
infinitesimal.  A spiritual entity cannot have size.  However, all it means
here is  that jiva can be associated with matter however small in size.  It
is a unitary principle and it is always agreeable to itself and that it does
not have parts ( anukulatva, ekatva).  Jiva has a locus.  sharira or body is
the locus.  It has a geographical attribute.  Hence it is related to this
physical reality. GOD is located everywhere. HE feels from everywhere.  Jiva
feels only in the body where it is or feels from a single point (here jiva
means jiva's svarupa).

Similarly,  vibhutva does not really mean all pervasiveness in a purely
physical sense.  It is sarva murtha dravya sambanditva - ie. God is
associated with all entities however subtle or gross.
since jiva is spiritual and is visible to only the yogic spiritual eye or
jnana,  what harm is there to realize that God who is all pervasive, is
associated with every entity including jiva ?  This is a spiritual pervasion
not physical.  Having said this, anutva should be taken in a spiritual sense
and not physical sense.

Coming to Time,  remember that jiva and paramatma are nirvikara entities.
what is time?  it is a measure of change. It measures age, like childhood,
youth and oldage.  It measures some kind of change such as revolution of the
earth around the sun etc. What if I bring to your attention that time has no
meaning in the spiritual world.  "na kalah tatra vai prabhuh".  time does
not rule there ( in vaikunta).  In this sense God is beyond the concept of
time.  time does not have any effect over HIM. In fact it cannot be not
defined for change less entities. In this sense GOD is beyond time.  He
transcends time.

I would like you to consider my thoughts here along with the shastraic
answer given by Sri Anand Karalapakkam.

Bring to your attention -  the issues "immanence" and "transcendence".  GOD
supports concept of time.  ie. Without him time is not defined.  time is
sesha of GOD - He is adhara, niyamaka and seshin - IN that sense he is
within time and beyond time.  time cannot control or constrain GOD.  but
time is verily held together and made existent by the power of GOD.
similarly everything - prithvi, wind ,fire, indriyas, objects that are both
inferior and those that are auspiscious -- in all of them there is this
immanence and transcendence of GOD.  He is within and without everything
that can be thought of including our own thoughts.  In this sense antar
bahischa tat sarvam vyapya narayanah stithah.- should be understood.


while thinking about this universe, we should not forget that jiva and GOD
are spiritual entities and not physical ones.

Uttamoor swamy mentions in the katopanishad bhasya - 2-20 anoraniyan mahato
mahiyan -

roughly - summary of his comments are : God is   capable of being associated
with an infinitesimal entity without being affected by it.  note the
sentences here :

antah pravesha yogyatvam anutvam.  yogya padena antah praveshabhavat antah
pravesho nasti iti jnapyate. anu padasya alpa parimanatva arthakatve
aniyastvam alpatara parimanatvam iti vaktavyam. tat mahati asminna ghatate.
ataha anoraniyan itsasya durgrahat durgrahatarah ityeva arthah!!! mahat
padena atyanta mahat bhinna grahanavat anu padena atyanta anu bhinna grahane
tu tadantah praveshopi suvachaha

" It means capacity of paramatma to go inside an infinitesimally small
entity (anu).  Here capacity means that real "going inside" is ruled out!.
If you define anu as related to minute size, aniyan has to be defined as
smaller than the minute entity (anu).  On the other hand what is bigger than
mahat (all pervading)? this cannot be defined.  Hence, it is better to
understand anu as subtle or difficult to comprehend and aniyan as subtler or
more difficult to understand. If you delink size from the meanings of mahat
and anu ( understand that they are spiritual entities rather than physical
ones) it is possible to even comprehend entering inside of paramatman in
jivatman as spiritual entities.  Regarding mahat, when all entities are
addressed by mahat, God's niyantritva or controllership of everything
provides meaning for his being greater than the all pervading vibhu ( mahato
mahiyan). Note that space itself is supported by paramatman! hence all
pervasion is a dependent concept to space.

Hope this clears the issue at hand.

By the way....

Adiyen has personally benefitted by talking to SMS Chari often. learning by
talking to scholars is hundred times more effective than reading books.
"pustaka jnanam mastake na tishtati" - book knowledge does not stay in the
head!.   I think more people in US should pick up the phone and call SMS
chari and ask him questions while he is here. Such a great person's brain is
not used properly and he is not getting younger day by day. First of all
rarely people of his calibre visit US. I dont think we can find such
scholars who have learnt under gostipuram swamy / peria parakala swamy
 gudartha deepika fame) etc every other day.  He is a brilliant vedantin and
an excellent visistadvaita scholar with great english books to his credit.
Honestly I could understand only a fraction of the information given by him.
He is writing his book "philosophy of Upanisads - according to Samkara,
Ramanuja and Madhva" which is a great book. Adiyen had the grace of our
acharyas, since I could type some portions or the book and discuss many
issues with him face to face.  - tad viddhi pranipatena pari prashnena
sevaya - one should serve a guru and learn. If you need to contact him he is
available only for a few more weeks at - 818-348-8182  ( LA area in CA).  He
is returning to India after that. Adiyen has used a lot of information
obtained by talking to SMS chari in the gita classes.

Adiyen believes in the rigvedic hymn - "Aa no bhadrah krathavo yantu
vishvatah" - Let noble thoughts come to us from all directions.  Knowledge
is very important irrespective of who teaches it.  adiyen learnt a
considerable amount of sanskrit and vedic recitation from Anantha shastri
and Veerabhotla shastri, who are not even srivaishnavas. There should be no
barriers to knowledge; however, one should know what orientation a teacher
has and appropriately understand issues according to one's choice.


Krishna Kalale

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