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Date: Wed Apr 05 1995 - 19:03:57 PDT

Mr. Krishna wrote an instantaneous reply to my brief posting on Karmic cycle
as a "thought"on Karmic cycle. Mr.Krishna,
    You have replied in 10 minutes. I  salute   your  blind  faith  on  all 
Avathaarams as I also worship them and have blind faith  on  them.  I  also 
respect your belief that they are excluded from the Karmic  Cycle. Your ref
erences are extradinary and respectful. But Sriman Narayana has been talked
about in other literatures also. This being a forum to discuss and gain kno
wledge from various sources, I treat your comment as one input. There is no
way one would want to confine the source of knowledge to one book or one pu
raanaa or a selective few. Then we would not have discussed bible herein th
is group and the concept of holy Father a few days back. There are many the
ories to argue on Karma concept. But defining the scope to a selected numbe
r of literatures is questionable. It is not logic and neither the pundits 
beleive in such arguments. If there is a truth in some literature on some 
form why not we accept it. The bottom line is Truth is a Truth. 
It doesnot matter whether it is a bible or
periya puraanam or Naalaayiram. I donot know if you can understand Tamil. If
you read some of the concluding lines of paththus the  azhwaars swear that 
those ten paasurams are the essence of all vedas and so on. I beleive that. 
God did not appear for sanskrit people alone .God made his holy books avail
able for non sanskrit people also. So Naalaayiram is no less to vedam. If 
you know the naalaayiram, they are arranged in some order which is unique that
even the  scriptures you mentioned did not follow that order. It is 
Brahman's nature and Pranava and then the Vedams and Vedaangams. There is a
section called Amalanaathipuraan. This entire set of paasurams are equated to 
Pranavam, and the first letters of the  first three paasurams start with "a"
"vu" and "ma". Naalaayirams are also unique in one another way. This is the 
only literature offered to Sriman Narayan in front of him. ie The first song 
of the mudhalaazhwaar known as Poygai Aazhwaar starting "VaiyamE thagaliyaa"
was sung in front of HIM and Praati at Thirukkoviloor when the three azhwaars
took refuge in small shelter. Sriman Naraayana appeared there with Praati and
the first song was offered to him directly and I am asking you if any of the 
other puraanams are offered directly in his presence. The only exception is
Geetha and Udhdhava Geetha which are offered by Himself. 

	It is understood that  I  have read the basic literatures and some
 puraanams more than your suggested minimum requirement of 10  hrs. Besides
I have discussed with many saints and Siththar followers on many issues. We
have a proverb in tamil which says "listening is better than reading". I ha
ve heard from people who really did penance and  these people are not avail
able for any ordinary persons. It is hard even to spot some of them. It is a she
ar luck I met some of them at strange circumstances. None of them suggest me
that only a few puraanams are authentic and that others are semi legitimate.
Some of them gave me clear knowledge many fundamental doubts of mine. I donot
know how they knew I have these doubts. But they are more than ordinary persons.
  But my analysis is coming out from many sources which  you  have  not heard 
of. So I humbly suggest that you  must  try  to  read  some  of  the  other 
puraanams also wherein Sriman Naarayanmoorthy has a role to play.  I  donot 
think that he played those roles for nothing. I truly believe that whatever 
HE has done, has something to convey. Whether a penance on Kanaka  Durga as 
Parasu Ramar or a worship on Lord shiva as Rama at Rameshvaram.  There  are 
few references to Lord Krishna's  end  (hit  by  the  arrow)  as  a  Karmic 
reaction to Vaali vatham  in  Rama  Avathaaram.  Do  you  think  that  Lord 
Krishna's end is accidental and has nothing to convey ? By any chance  have 
you read the Udhdhava Geetha, the last message of Sri Krishna ?  The  supreme 
personal, Lord Vasudeva only in his form is not bound by Karma. But many of 
the analysis by learned scholars (who  are  sanyaasis,  read  and  preached 
volumes and volumes of puraanams and so they obviously have done more  than 
10 hours of book work) point out that there is a karmic  cycle  created  by 
some of the actions of Avathaarams also. 

	Do you know why Paarvathi did severe penance on "Vaamanaa" (she could
have done on Sriman Naarayanamoorthy himself) and sought his blessings and
got her name as "Kaamaakshi" and do you know who asked her do such penenace
seeking "Vaamanaa"'s blessings. Vaamanaa is a very importanat Avathaaram from
whom many of the Sri vaishanava beliefs and protocols are derived. Do you know
 what are they? Do you know the relevance of Hanuman as siriya thiruvadi and
why he is considered incarnation of Lord Shiva by some ? Do you know why
Sriman Naaraayana Moorthy sought the footing of Lord Shiva in a contest with
Brahmaa ? Do you know why Sri Hari Hara puthran known as Aiyyappan was born
to Hari and Haran. Do you know who helped Lord Muruga to conquer Sooran and 
how ? Do you know how Sriman Naarayanamoorthy stopped the "Oozhi kaala nada
nam" of Lord shiva ( the world was starting to get destroyed and It cannot
happen without Kalki Avathaaram since the time was not ripe then for it. So
Sriman Naarayanamoorthy tactfully stopped Lord Shiva from dancing oozhikaalam).
 Do you know how ? Do you also know how Sriman Naaryana got Lord Shiva out of
the stomach of "Gajaashura" and what HE advised paarvathi in creation of "Lord
Vinaayakar" ? Do you know why "Saraswathi" did penance for his blessings at
Thirumalai and how the clan of Hiranyakashyup and other "Demons" began their
existance ? Do you know why HIS presnce is sought in almost all puraanams ?
Do you know that all these roles of HIM have something different 
 and unique to learn. There are many more such roles HE  has played in several
puraanams, to offer us several details. 

    It is always good to have a blind faith. But it is  also  dangerous  to 
close the eyes and say that the world is dark. Some of us  are  inquisitive 
and there is nothing wrong in that. On the other hand it is always good  to 
analyze and derive some useful conclusions from anything.  As  told  in  my 
"introduction message" to this group I strongly  believe  that  many  of  the 
essentials are hidden with regard  to  the  entire  physical  universe  its 
creation preservation and destruction in Naalaayiram  the  Draavida  vedam, 
and anyone with the God given analytical  mind  can  see  through  them. 

    I believe we vaishnavites cannot afford to live  in  isolation  and  we 
have to find strong reasoning for the roles Sri Vishnu takes  up  in  other 
puraanaas too. There is a major drawback for the entire Hinduism 'cos  some 
persons take extreme positions based on a set of  puraanams  and  are  many 
times unable to answer the omnipresence of Lord in many other  corollaries. 
These people sometimes gives an unclear message  and  provides  a  confused 
image to Hinduism collectively and  mainly  Srivaishnavism  in  particular. 
Srivaishnavism is not a cult to have some rigid position on Sri Vishnu. The 
scope expands "for ever" and it depends on one's mental frame  work  as  to 
how much one can take up and infer from this. I would continue to pursue my 
analysis in these lines, no matter what you think of.

	At the outset please donot take my arguments personally. Like I said
that your comments are one input into my process of "seeking", one must also
take my argument here as one another input. I must have come out strongly on
some aspects. That means I am more than convinced on those. But my quest for
more knowledge continues.

	I pray his Thiruvadis every day and meditate atleast 2 hours a day.
I also worship him as the supreme being. It doesnot stop me in any way to
analyse his Avathaarams and seek some good and useful information . I donot
feel that I am compromising his superior nature in anyway. At the same time 
I donot have any rigid convictions like a fundamentalist and I am open to 
learn and gain more truth on HIM from any one and from any literature.
Sam Rengi