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RE: [RE: `vision' of the self]

From: Krishna Kalale (kkalale1_at_san.rr.com)
Date: Thu Apr 06 2000 - 11:38:21 PDT

Dear Sri Hari,

thanks for the clarification.  I just wrote that email in brief.  You are right the similarity is "restricted" where jiva will never have :

1) jagat sristi palana samhara - function of rulership of the universe
2) sriyah patitivam (ie. being the consort of sri)

In fact,  it is stated in the terms " sriyah patitvam jagat adhipathyam vina...."

thanks

adiyen Krishna

-----Original Message-----
From:	M.S.HARI (Madabhushi Sarangarajan Hari) [SMTP:mshari@usa.net]
Sent:	Wednesday, April 05, 2000 11:22 PM
To:	kkalale1@san.rr.com; nama-singapore@eGroups.com; bhakti-list@egroups.com
Subject:	Re: [RE: `vision' of the self]

Dear Shree Krishna Kalale,

I would like to mention few points regarding the "ultimate similarity to
Srimannarayana" which you have mentioned. The Vedic verse describes
the Mukta Jeeva as "Paramam Saamyam Upethi". This is explained in 
Shree Bhashya by Raamaanuja when Swamy has commented on the Sutras
"Jagat Viyaapaara Varjam.. ." and "Bhogha Maatra Saamya Lingaaccha".
Meaning, the Jeeva has his dharma bhoota ijgnaanaa in full form and
he realises his reality(Swaroopa) that he is ijgnaana-aananda-ANU and
Sesha of Shreeman Naaraayanaa. His Moksham is consisting of four
states: 1.Saaloka, 2.Saaroopiyam 3. Saameepyam & 4. Saayujyam.
He Mukta reaches the eternal abode of Shreeman Naaraayana Paramaatman
which is Shree Vaikunta Paramapada(Saaloka). He gets a divine body
of Sudha Satva resembling Shree Hari(Saaroopiyam). He goes near to
the Lord Hari and Shree who are seated on the divine Aadhi Sesha
Simhaasana surounded by muktas and nitya soories(Saameepyam). He then
eternally stays with him and serves his lotus feet(Saayujaym). Though
the mukta's state is described like this, his ulitimate similarity to
Lord Hari is to be understood by "Jagat Viyaapaara varjam.. ." meaning
the mukta cannot involve himself in creation,sustaining and destroying
of the universe which only the Lord can do. His swaroopa is always
Anu & Sesha only well distinguised from the Lord Hari. "Bhoga Maatra
Saamya Ligaanchaa" sutra clearly says that the ulitimate similarity
is only in terms of the Aananda(Bliss) which is that of the Lord and
not in terms of Swaroopa. 

Thanks & Regards
M.S.HARI Raamaanuja Daasan.
==================================================================

Krishna Kalale <kkalale1@san.rr.com> wrote:
Asmad gurubhyo namah,

All that is needed is :  Being closer to its original nature is more 
agreeable than a state far away from it.

Note moksha is :  defined as : sva svarupa avirbhava - ie. attainment of 
one's original state.  The more faraway one is from his origina l state it 
will be more disagreeable and hence "duhka maya" or "state of sadness or 
incompleteness.

Original state is complete expansion of dharmabhutajnana with no obstacles: 
and of course the ashtaguna avirbhava and niranjanah parama samya. ie. full 
expanse of 8 gunas and ultimate similarity to Srimannarayana.

adiyen Krishna
-----Original Message-----
From:	Kasturi Varadarajan [SMTP:kvaradar@cs.uiowa.edu]
Sent:	Wednesday, April 05, 2000 6:19 PM
To:	kkalale1@san.rr.com
Cc:	'Kasturi Varadarajan'; mani@best.com; mshari@usa.net; 'Anand 
Karalapakkam'
Subject:	Re: `vision' of the self

> Note anand :  the the bliss of svarupa becomes evident during
> atmasakshatkara due to the fact that powerful dharmabhutajnana is 
directed
> to its svarupa.  Now in the bound stage since the dharmabhutajana is
> directed to matter or even mind we are mistaking that we are associated
> with the ups and downs of the experiences.  We are not realizing that we
> are totally different from the experience.   Once we know that we are
> different from the experience and that we are jnata - ie. ashrayam to
> jnanam.  ie. locus of jnana then we know who really we are.  Note that 
our
> jivatma anukulatva does not swell or decrease since svarupa of jiva is
> nirvikari. or changeless. Hence only changes occur to dharmabhuta jnana.
>  our jiva svarupa is unknown or less known in bound state. In state of
> realization we know through dharmabhuta jnana who really we are and that 
we
> are blissful.  But what does it mean by the statement " I am bliss ful" . 
>  all it means is " I"  which is my jiva svarupam is the locus of the
> dharmabhutajnanam which has the "the nature of my jivatma svarupa" as its 
> object and hence through that focussed beam of dharmabhutajnanam directed 
> towards this svarupam of mine, I am able to visualize that I am not 
matter
> or sorrowful but I am different and immortal and blissful.  My anubhavam
> means I am just a locus my own dharmabhutajnana which has my true 
blissful
> state as its object of preception. But my svarupam does not alter due to 
my
> dharmabhutajnanam having different issues as its object.
>

Taking the cue from here, bliss is only something which the self can
become aware of through d-b-j. So it seems necessary to postulate some
agreeability conditions. Like:

1. The knowledge of greater bliss is more agreeable to the jiva than
   the knowledge of lesser bliss.

Unless something like this is assumed why would moksha be more desirable
than samsara? Is this how things work in visistadvaita? Assuming this is
how they work I am stating more conditions:

2. Expanded d-b-j is more agreeable than contracted d-b-j.
3. Knowledge of Seshatva is more agreeable than the absence of this 
knowledge.

One can go on listing more conditions. Is there one condition or a small
set of conditons that captures them all?



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