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Re: [RE: Your question answered]

From: M.S.HARI (Madabhushi Sarangarajan Hari) (
Date: Wed Apr 05 2000 - 18:21:51 PDT

Dear Shree Krishna Kalale,

Namaskaram. The experiencer is without doubt the Jeeva (swaroopa). Now
the contradiction arises how can the ever igjnyaanaananda swaroopa be the 
experiencer (kartha & Bhookta) of even sorrow-full things in this 
world. Here it has to be understood that the swaroopa igjnyaana and the
igjnyaa possessed by the swaroopa (ie., dharma bhootha igjnyaana) are
two different quantities. The dharma bhootha igjnyaana is an 
inseparable attribute of the jeeva swaroopa (which is dharmi) and
undergoes contraction and expansion according to the jeeva's karma. 
The jeeva by its ignyaana swaroopa can know itself ("I"/"Aham") and does 
not require the dharma bhoota igjnyaana for this purpose but in Yoga,
it can realise itself (as "I") using dharma bhoota igjnyaana also.
The jeeva by its ignyaana swaroopa can also know its individuality
and it is alone(pratyak) distinguised from others. But for the Jeeva
to know other things other than itself ("I"), it has to use its
bharma bhootha igjnyana only. As this contracts and expands according
to Jeeva's karma(avidya), the jeeva realises sorrow-full things
according to its knowledge of anukulatvam and pratikulatvam. Something
realised by a Jeeva as bad may not look to be bad for other jeeva. 
Something realised by a Jeeva as good may not be look to be good for
other Jeeva. This is because of the individual's dharma bhoota ignyaana
which is depandent on individual's karma. Therefore the ever ignyaana
aananda swaroopa is not undergoing any change though it is the 
experiencer. Hope your question is further answered. If you have any
doubts, please do reply to me.

M.S.HARI Raamaanuja Daasan

Krishna Kalale <> wrote:
The question is who is the experiencer?  ie. jiva svarupa only since 
dharmabhutajnana is not a knower!  that means jivasvarupa undergoes 
sorrows!   how is this accounted when it should be always blissful


-----Original Message-----
From:	M.S.HARI (Madabhushi Sarangarajan Hari) []
Sent:	Tuesday, April 04, 2000 6:50 PM
Subject:	Your question answered

Dear Shree Krishna Kalale,

Namaskaram. This is Hari Raamaanuja Daasan the Humble Servent of Shree
Vaishnavaas answering your question:

Your question regarding the controversy has deep value. Actually there
is not controversy and it is answered in the Shree Bhaashya. I will
present the answer in brief as follows: Out of the seven objections
(Sapta Vidhaanupaapathis) against Advaita raised by Shree Raamaanuja,
the Tirodhaanupapathi is relevant in this context. Advaita philosophers
say that the Brahman is covered by Aavidyaa and appears as Jiva. They
further say that the Brahman is without any qualities(attributes) and
is without a second entity. It is Swayamprakaasa and Kevala Jgnyaana
Swaroopa. The swayamprakaasatwa is not a quality of Brahman but it is
the Swaroopa(Reality) itself according to Advaitins as they do not
accept that Brahman has qualities. We Visistaadvaitians therefore
raise an objection to this that "If the Brahman according to Advaita
is to be covered by Aavidyaa and it appears as Jiva then, the aavidyaa
has to cover/remove the Swayamprakaasa of the Brahman. As advaitins
do not accept Swayamprakaasatva as quality of Brahman but the Brahma
Swaroopa itself, then Aavidyaa has to destroy the Brahma Swaroopa itself
and therefore the in Advaita, the Brahman itself is not to be present
when it apprears as Jiva! Therefore in Advaita "Nirguna ChinMaatram
Brahma" itself is contradictory!"

On hearing this objection by Visistaadvaitins, the Advaitins turn the
same objection on us! That is the Advaitins say that "The same is
the case in your philosophy also! You say that the Jeeva is Jgynaa
Aaananda Swaroopa. But you also say that it gets itself jailed in the
samsaara and forgets its swaroopa because of Kaarma. If kaarma can
obstruct/cover the jeeva and make it to forget its swaroopa and make it
to think that the Jeeva is the body etc., then the Jeeva Tatva itself
is destroyed and in your philosophy also, the same objection is valid.
If you refute it, then the same refutation will hold good for our
philosophy(advaita) also".

Raamaanuja says that the way in which Advaitins has answered by
turning the objection on us is like a joke. Their point does not hold
good. In our philosophy, the karma does not obstruct/cover the Jeeva's
swaroopa jgnyaana-aananda. But only obstructs/covers the Dharma Bhoota
jgnyaana which is an attribute/quality of the Jeeva and different from
its swaroopa jgnyaana. That is the reason why the Jeeva forgets its
self-realisation and thinks that "I am the body" etc.,. Its swaroopa
still remains untouched by the Karma. The Jeeva knows always himself
as "I" by its swaroopa jgnyaana. But for the jeeva to know other things
other than itself, it needs its Dharma Bhoota jgnyaana. It can know
itself as "I" by its Dharma Bhoota jgnyaana also but it is not needed as
a "Must". This is the reason why the according to the karma, its
dharma bhoota jgnyaana becomes contracted and the Jeeva without
proper realisations, becomes subjected to various joy and sorrows in
the material world. Still its swaroopa is jgnyaana-aananda-aNu-Shesha
only. This refutation cannot be taken by advaitins as answer for
the same objection rasied by us in the begining as they do not accept
that the Brahman has qualities/attributes. Thus I think I have answered
your question in brief. Please do get back to me if you have any
doubts regarding this. The controversy is thus solved.

M.S.HARI Raamaanuja Daasan.

Krishna Kalale <> wrote:

Dear sri Hari,

A question came up in the classes I wanted to find an answer from your

1. Jiva is subjected to pleasure and pain as we experience in daily life.
 Jiva is enveloped by manas and indriyas which form the sukshma sarira of
jiva.  who is the knower, experiencer and agent (karta)?  that is the jiva
itself.  dharmabhutajnana cannot know it can only show the objects and
itself to jiva.  hence when a person experiences pain,  jivatama
experiences pain.  On one hand jiva is said to be jnana ananda maya -
eternally blissful.  How can one reconcile these two different views 1)
jiva experiences pain 2) jiva is eternally blissful!  How to get over this

Please try to shed somelight on to this question.  My acharya Dr. NS
anantharangachar gave a particular answer.  Iwanted to know from your end
since you have studied under great vidwans.

Krishna Kalale

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