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follow up on mani's article

From: Krishna Kalale (krishna_at_nynexst.com)
Date: Thu Aug 04 1994 - 08:49:15 PDT

I am impressed by the precise statement of nature of moksha (or near moksha)as
experienced by Nammalvar in mani's article.

Note that there are precise statements in the vedas to the effect that
the individuality is retained:

yadaa suddhe sudhham aasiktam taadrik eva bhavati -

when a crystal clear droplet of water mixes with another crystal clear
droplet of water it becomes similar - (taadrik).  It does not become one!

- I think this is brihadaranyaka

again in mundaka -

tada vidwaan punya paape vidhooya niranjanaha paramam saamyam upaiti -

then the knower (bramhan) shaking away from the shackles of punya and sin,
attains utmost similarity to bramhan.

Krishna states - 

idam jnaanam upasritya mama saadharmam aagathaaha sargepi nopa jayante
pralaye na vyathanthi cha -  

attaining this knowledge, those knowers attaining similarity to me, do not get
birth at creation nor are struck with sorrow during pralaya  ... why sorrow
during pralaya?  - since a soul which has not attained moksha at pralaya will
have no body for a long time during the no creation phase, cannot have a chance
to have moksha!  that is why vedanta desika says - creation is the daya or mercy
of lord - vitarasi daye jantoon avalokya jaata nirveda karana kalebara yogam 
vitarasi vrisha shaila naatha karune tvam (Daya-sataka)- Oh Lord of the vrisha hills,
Sri Venkatesha, out or mercy to those souls you put forth creation thus uniting
those souls with mody and mind using which these souls can strive to come to you......"

coming to the point there is not single statement of "absolute identity"
in the vedas. the only statement which comes close is :

bramha veda bramhaiva bhavati -  mundaka


the knower of bramhan becomes bramhan -  Now look at this verse carefully

How can something which is not bramhan become bramhan?  it cannot since
bramhan is unchangeable,  that is bramhan cannot be non-bramhan and become
bramhan afterwards. he cant arbitrarily loose bramhatva or "Godness" also.
So here in this verse the knower of bramhan - who is a jeeva to start with
cannot become bramhan but since the sruthi states - " becomes bramhan" it is
obvious that the second word bramhan refers only to its true etymological
meaning - brihatvaat bramha uchyate - ie. bramha means "big" - this means
"asankuchita jnaaanaikaakaaaro bhavati" - becomes infinite due the the 
dharma bhoota jnana with no constraints from the shackles of karma.

this means that this statement only confirms the other statements that say
they become similar to bramhan - ie. who has no constraints on his knowledge.

If one does not understand this verse in this way - they fall into a 
bottomless pit of vedic logical absurdity:

1.  How does this bramhan who is pure jnana svaroopa - or made of Jnana 
gets entangled and the appearance of this world occur?

2.  How can he attain jeevatva or soul hood?  If he attains soul hood even if
one gets moksha why cant the same person be born again since bramhan seems to
be subject to maya inexplicably!!! Is bramhan a fool to attain this wretched
soulhood in the first place?  he seems to get into soulhood helplessly! and
the vedas falsely term bramhan as "sarva shakta" sarvajna- all powerful and
all knowing -  shame on him !!!!

So a thousand questions follow as explained in the sribhasya of ramanuja.

I request the netters to get a copy of sribhasya and browse it just for the
heck of it even though it is a little terse (even the translations). In the
long run one will not have any delusions or one will have no reason not to 
have untainted bhakti towards the lotus feet of our and everyone's
lord Srimannarayana..


who is SARVA GUNA SAMPANNA (infinite virtued),  and Not a mere appearance of
a Nirguna Bramhan due to Unreal Upadhis (conditions),  but he is a real
saviour, a person whom you can trust.  

Krishna says with great pain in his voice - na maam dushkritino moodaha prapadyante naraadhamaaha, maayaya apahrita jnaanaha aasuram bhavam ashritaaha - "The sinful and the dullheaded people who are the worst of humanity, fail to trust me and surrender to me,  their judgement is deluded by Maya,  and they have
attained demonaic characteristics.

Note, the word aasura - is not really demonaic as we think - 

in sanskrit "Asushu ramante iti asuraaha" means - one who shines or revels in breathing - is an Asura. That is one who is happy in this bondage in an asura.
he/she basically leads a life of material pursuits and enjoys such activities - that is the person termed here as ASura.  it is not "rakshasa" or demon as we
comprehend that word.

Namo Bhagavate Vaasudevaya


Krishna